 Posted Wednesday, April 18, 2007 12:36 PM
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[i]". . . and perhaps I missed it - but has he ever really stood up to the MIL? I mean, really made her change her position? I'd like to see him demonstrate (promises and intentions mean nothing) this basic, Marriage 1A skill before I signed him on. He cleaves to you, not her! If he cannot do this - and he'll undoubtedly have to sooner or later - then you're in trouble."
Lia:
Birdstrike has a very valid point above.
One other thing to bring up. You mentioned in your first post that you were a practicing Catholic. I assume, therefore that you are comfortable if not enthusiastic about its teachings. In a later post you say that you two will be shopping around for a Christian church that you both can feel comfortable with.
Although your fiance has left CS and indicates he is open to joining a Christian Church, has he rejected outright the idea of joining the Catholic Church? If so, is this strictly for doctrinal reasons, or is it possible that at least subconciously he doesn't want to cross his mother? I think this is a fair question to ask yourself and him, particularly since you are active in the Catholic Church. To the best of my knowledge, I have also never come accross anything which indicates (either pre or post Vatican II) that it is not still a sin for a Catholic to leave the Catholic Church. (The Catholic Church is not alone in this teaching when it comes to folks switching denominations, in fairness).
Of course, if you are mutually questioning its teachings-that's different.
John
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Posted Wednesday, April 18, 2007 4:05 PM
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I wasn't going to say it - but John is right. Part of being Catholic is following the teachings of the Church.
I would encourage you to sit down and figure out what you believe, and what you want your kids to become, rather than to church-shop!
Birdstrike
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Posted Wednesday, April 18, 2007 6:05 PM
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Hi everyone, sorry about not posting for a few days, it was the end-of-semester crunch (I'm a grad student). But it's so refreshing to read all of your posts and hear new points of view.
Some things about my fiance...we deliberately set a date for the wedding late next year so that we'll have time to sort these issues out. We've already talked about finding a religion and a lot of the other aspects of child-rearing, so I'm hoping that we'll be able to come to an agreement by the end of this year. I agree with you all that it's not an issue that should be left until after the wedding.
In terms of standing up to her, he has tried (and I've been listening while he's tried) but honestly it's very difficult. She will NOT apologize for anything because she honestly believes she's right. Let me give you a non-religious example. One time she got a traffic ticket for making an illegal turn, and instead of just chalking it up to a moment of insanity/bad luck/whatever, she went to the corner for the next several days and sat there on a lawn chair counting the number of other cars that made the same turn. She brought her numbers back to the local police station to protest and argued with them (unsuccessfully) until they finally agreed to put a sign indicating that turn as illegal. She considered that a personal victory. My point with that story is that she is very righteous about everything she does and almost enjoys little battles like these, I think because she can constantly reaffirm her beliefs. She makes everything (including driving to a store across town to save a couple bucks on groceries) into a moral issue, and it's very hard to argue with someone when her morality is "at stake."
That being said, my fiance has told her everything I would have told her--that he is marrying a good person, that she should be proud, that if she keeps acting this way he has no choice but to side with me over her. Whenever he does this, she tells the rest of their family that he doesn't love her, and about an hour later he gets an anguished call from his sister asking why he's ruining their family.
About my commitment to Catholicism- yes it could be stronger. When I go to confession I feel obligated to mention that I don't agree with some of the church's teachings. Oddly enough, only one priest has ever given me any penance specifically for that, they usually focus on whatever else I say. Maybe they're used to it, I have no idea. I also don't believe that there is only one correct denomination of Christianity (it's something I kind of have to believe since I know both of my parents will go to Heaven and only one is Catholic), so it's difficult to believe that it's a sin to leave the Catholic church for another denomination. However, I have been troubled by the fact that I did get confirmed and promised to live as a Catholic, so in my eyes breaking that promise would be the sin.
My fiance hasn't outright rejected Catholicism, but I think Mass is just too different from what he thinks of as worship. We went to church with my father (a Protestant) and I think he (my fiance) related to that better. I don't think he would reject Catholicism so as not to cross his mother--giving up Christian Science is already the worst thing he could do (according to her).
I hope I answered everything.  Take care everyone...thanks again for your comments.
Lia
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Posted Wednesday, April 18, 2007 8:21 PM
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| It sounds like your finace's mother has an unhealthy control over her family (your fiance excluded). Good for him for not falling into the trap. I have known other families with this problem, and it's heartwrenching for the family member who refuses to be controlled. I feel bad for you and your fiance. Regaring the promise you made to remain Catholic (or for that matter, any particular religion in which you might have gone through confirmation as a child) -- I suspect that God would honor a change of mind if, after prayerfully studying the Bible, you decided that another denomination was following the Bible more, or at least as well as, the religion in which you were confirmed. I firmaly believe that God is interested in our relationship with him and response to his Word more than he cares about what church we attend (as long as that church is biblical in its teaching). I'm not trying to steer you toward one religion or another, but to suggest that God will will guide you to the church he wants you to be in, regardless of whether that's the church you were confirmed in as a child.
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Posted Wednesday, April 18, 2007 11:47 PM
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Hi Lia:
I agree with practically everything Linda said - even on the "Confirmation" thing! Although Linda and Do Go see the Bible as authoritative in itself, and I see the Bible as the product of an authoritative Church, a Bible study is probably the "fairest" way of figuring out which system is best. Study it from both sides to see which side makes the best case for most closely following what Christ actually taught. I'm sure that all of us could recommend some good books on apologetics if you asked us - and I'm guessing that we all agree that the truth is more important than charismatic speakers and social services, as well.
And I am not a priest, but regarding your Confirmation, you made the best decision you could at the time. Linda is right; if you truly were to find out that another church followed Biblical teachings more closely, you would be morally obligated to bail. Worshipping God is the point of the whole thing, isn't it?!
But if you fell away from the Church for other reasons, such as hardness of heart, laziness or mere convenience, then I do believe that falling away is a sin. Finding the truth is key to the whole thing; note that rejection of it is the "unforgivable" sin (rejection of the Holy Spirit - I forget where this Bible verse is).
And I'm sorry about the Mass - it's overwhelmingly Biblical, but unfortunately it's incomprehehsible to outsiders and even most Catholics. It's of course a study in itself. As a brand-new Catholic, I see this as a real paradox; such a beautiful and Scriptural thing totally escapes most people because they don't understand what they're participating in. Even the good, Christian practice of bringing children to the Mass has it's downside compared to our Protestant bretheren; now there's no "Sunday School" with age-appropriate lessons, and kids have to be catechized on another day - or rather not catechized at all. Poor catechesis and "going-through-the-motions Catholics" is often the result.
Birdstrike
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Posted Thursday, April 19, 2007 12:20 AM
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. . . and one last point, from the B. F. Skinner files:
In the manipulation world, as in childrearing, it's all about limits. As any parent can tell you, one of a child's most important "jobs" is to find out where the limits are - and they will continually push until they find out just where the limits are, guaranteed. So what looks like "conflict" early on just may be proper limit setting that buys lasting harmony later on, and conversely, what may feel like "love" early on may actually be buying lots of grief down the road.
If the limit is not set, then you are saying "I accept that behavior". Period; it's as simple as that. If your fiance did not apply enough force toward your MIL to ensure that the behavior isn't repeated, then he is saying "Yes, mother, you can go ahead and do this. I won't do anything serious about it." And she'll push even harder next time, guaranteed, since the limit is obviously even farther out (and she loves this kind of thing anyway).
Forgive me for being blunt - but your fiance is saying that it's okay for mummy to talk smack about you to your inlaws - and you are apparently saying that it's okay, as well. "I'm sorrys" and excuses mean nothing, of course - how far each person is willing to go to set a limit (or push one, in MIL's case) means everything.
This is all red-flag stuff. Perhaps your fiance will grow some hair on his chest in the coming months and set a real, non-negotiable limit; it would be a good sign. If not, get ready for psychological warfare with a pro for the next couple of decades.
Birdstrike
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Posted Friday, April 20, 2007 8:45 AM
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Lia:
Birdstrike is right regarding your prospective Mother in Law. She sounds like my paternal grandmother to a tee with the self righteous bit. In effect, she had a God complex. Whether this was a reflection of her sinful nature that was reinforced by CS, or resulted from her affiliation with CS I don't know. (In the end, it doesn't matter).
Be honest with yourself when it comes to your temperment also, Lia. Are you a streetfighter? If you marry your fiance, you will have to be on a daily basis. My mother was, and still there was great unhappiness in her life and marraige at times. Is your fiance a street fighter? My Dad was not, which resulted in great sadness in that he lost the small family he had. He didn't really even try to set them straight about my grandmother until his 70's and by then it was too late. Of course, he didn't have the temperment to do that. He was raised in a household where MBE was God, or the closest thing to it. (In fact, in CS, the real "father figure" is a woman-MBE. )
Whiie I seldom make a denominational pitch in my posts, I'm going to in this instance. Have you and your fiance looked at a Missouri Synod Lutheran church? From the standpoint of your background, you would be looking at a church with sacraments of baptism and the body and blood, belief in the creeds(apostles, etc). and and a liturgy and service similar to the Catholic Church (either comtemporary or very traditional, depending upon the parish). Private confession is also offered with the Pastor, and the sanctity of the confessional is preserved.
Doctrinally, we believe in salvation through faith as taught in the Bible. If you are a practicing Catholic, but looking elsewhere because you don't believe that Catholic beliefs are the end all in Christian teachings, you also have something in common with another Catholic who felt the same way-Martin Luther.
Best wishes in Christ on all fronts,
John
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Posted Sunday, April 22, 2007 10:10 AM
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Hello Lia
SurferforJesus here, you may have seen my post from a few years ago, Married to a CSist and Need Help. I am a Catholic Chrisitan and in a marriage with a lovely person with two beautiful, healthy intelligent and wonderful daughters.
However, there is a deep deep problem in my marriage, which goes back to my original "tolerance" of CS in my life. It was my life's mistake and will very likely lead to a divorce in the future. I want to see if I can get my kids through school at least and see them into hood. My marriage is a good business relationship, but as it relates to our spiritual connection there is a deep void and in my case a true lack of respect for her due to CS.
I have not been able to get my head around how crazy and twisted people who are CS must truly be. Following the teachings of a thrice divorced, puritan manipulator like MBE and believing that rewriting the word of God is acceptable is one major problem. Let alone all of this spiritual healing garbage and the whole focus being on healing and not salvation.
Trust me you better be VERY clear with your fiancee about how the kids will be raised and make him understand in clear language what your expectations are or do as my mom told me and I did not listen " Marry your own kind"
On a final note, my hats off to my brother and fellow Catholic Birdstrike. I always said that the converts to the Church are the best Catholics for they see the truth clearly whereas others like myself who come from thousands of years of Catholic tradition have to have our revelations from the Holy Spirit only in a time of crisis.
I will pray for you Lia, please pray for me
SurferforJesus
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