The Christian Way Forums / The Christian Way Forums / New to Forums -- Introductions and Personal Stories / Mark's story / Latest Posts

RE: Mark's story

Linda — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 06:01:20 GMT

Hi Mark,

Nice to hear from you. You sound REALLY busy on the other site!

Thanks for the information about the ski areas; the Crystal Lake Ski Area you describe sounds like the place where I skied. I had a lot of fun there except for the ankle injury.

I don't have individual passwords, but you can request yours as follows:

Click on "Login" as if you do have your password, then click on "Request Your Password" in the lower right area of the screen that opens up (it's in the section that says "Login Options."

RE: Mark's story

Phoenix Rising — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:42:45 GMT

Mark,

Your story has haunted me from the moment I read it weeks ago. First, you ought to have a hug. *HUG* I have been thinking a lot about you since reading your post. I have posted some of my story here in various posts. Im not a CSer but I married one. My husband's mother sounds like a miniature version of your mother. Like you, my experiences have turned me right off from any kind of organized religion. Religious zeal will never make its way into my life. To me, one form is very like another.

CS takes it to yet another level, though, with the torturing and the killing. I know those terms will put a lot of people off but I came here a few years ago because of a "killing". Telling your kids to "Know the Truth" and then sitting by and watching them limp around on broken legs and ankles is, in fact, torture. Its torture not only because of allowing the pain to continue, but because of telling the child the pain is not there. Transferring "fault" to the child for having the pain. *sigh* Its just horrible!!!! To say they didnt MEAN it as torture is not a good enough excuse...just as labeling it CS is not an excuse either. We can all recognize pain when we see it, and just denying its reality is not an excuse. Its incredible how a religion can pull a veil over the eyes of a parent. A veil so heavy that the parent can watch their own child suffer and not act to stop it.

Then the killing...that is perpetrated by most CS'sts, who stretch the truth and/or outright lie...when they talk about healings. Perhaps they do it to exalt themselves in the eyes of their peers, or to be accepted as a good CSer by the rest of the congregation. Then, of course there is just the plain ignorant. Was it in a recent Sentinel that I read about someone who had a healing when their heart stopped beating for 4 days, they prayed and prayed and it started right up again? Who but a CSer is going to read that and believe it happened? Each time these things are done the "lie of healing" is perpetuated. That encourages the very sick CSer to feel that the healing just has to come...because everyone else is getting them. The killing is also done by the practitioners and the teachers who tell their seriously ill patients not to go to the hospital when the patient asks, when the patient has been sick and getting sicker week after week after week, month after month..no healing...but no you dont need to go to the hospital. I know a CSer who died of gangrene, under the care of a TEACHER. Who dies of gangrene these days? Oh yeah, CSers.

Mark, my heart goes out to you. What you have been through is just horrible, outrageous, especially since so much of your agony was at the hands of your mother, or denied by your mother. I hope you can overcome the damage that has been done to you and find some kind of peace in your life, and more importantly and place for "Mark" to feel safe and loved. I know you must be strong of mind and body to have endured and to have broken away. Huzzah!

And..please.. write that book!

Square Peg

RE: Mark's story

Gentle Dove — Mon, 26 May 2008 07:06:20 GMT

I remember it was in either a Sentinel or Journal and it was after they came out with the new format. I remember that I was especially shocked by them not calling the police and pointed this out to the family members still in CS. There was neither a positive nor negative response from them. I am sure there is a way to find the old article that will give you the particulars regarding the age of the child etc. Although I had left the church years before, I still defended the CS'ers but that article was just one of those things that made me start worrying that the religion was extreme.

RE: Mark's story

Gentle Dove — Sun, 25 May 2008 20:18:21 GMT

Dawn Comes: Your story reminds me about an article or testimony I remember reading in CS literature in the last several years. A little girl was abducted and the mom wrote about how they didn't call the police, just prayed. Of course, since the article made it into the literature, the little girl was returned safely, but a response like that just seems beyond any common sense! Why not call the police and pray? It seems that the community would appreciate the report so that if a child predator was loose, they could at least stop him. I found it really alarming that the church would allow it to be published. It was if they condoned the actions of the parents and they were setting an example for other Christian Scientists to follow.

RE: Mark's story

dawn comes — Sun, 25 May 2008 19:52:51 GMT

Welcome Mark and Inzane99. I hope that you will both be helped by airing your experiences in a safe forum with people who understand. I won't repeat my own story here, but you can find it by searching.

I was thinking today about something that happened to me as a teenager. I was full of high-spirited hijinks as a teen, and made some ridiculous choices. One night I went with a girlfriend out to a river cabin in the middle of nowhere belonging to one of our boyfriend's parents. We met the boys there. They spent the first part of the evening scaring us with news reports of a crime that had happened nearby, and the rest of the evening irritating us in some way I can no longer recall. We decided to leave, and to get even with them we drove halfway down the long, dark driveway, then got out of the car and screamed a few times, slammed the car doors and sped off. We had a good laugh over that, and made the 45 minute drive back home.

She dropped me off at my house. I went in to find my parents pacing the floor anxiously....the boys had called them! Ooops. They thought we had been abducted. But here is the completely unexplainable part: instead of calling the police, my mother called her PRACTITIONER!!! My dad wasn't CS, and to this day I can't imagine why he went along with that decision. I doubt he would have gone much longer, but I still remember going to bed that night, pulling the covers up to my chin and laying there staring at the ceiling thinking "I could have really been in trouble and they called an old lady to give a treatment instead of the police!!!"

Now I don't think all Christian Scientists would do that....but at my house 'radical reliance' meant RADICAL!!

RE: Mark's story

Linda — Sat, 24 May 2008 20:22:11 GMT

Welcome to the forums, Inzane99!

Were the Crystal Lake camps in PA? I went on a couple of ski trips to Pennsylvania with my CS youth group in about 1970 and 1971, and I'm trying to remember if that was the camp name (it sounds very familiar).

It's wonderful that you found the Savior. You have given us some pieces of your story in a couple of threads today, and it sounds like you have much to share. I'd love to hear more about you -- would you be willing to start a new thread (perhaps titled something like, "new to forums -- Inzane99") and tell us some more about yourself?

Linda

RE: Mark's story

inzane99 — Sat, 24 May 2008 19:50:08 GMT

After reading these stories I'm relieved to know that I wasn't the only one told to just "know the truth" to relieve my physical sufferings. As a teeneger I also found out medicine could cure certain ills then strayed over into illegal drugs for a time and after that just couldn't relate to CS or any of its crazy beliefsanymore. It took falling to the bottom of the pit to realize my condition and to cry out for a Savior. Even though I was brought up in CS all my life...at that crucial point I asked Jesus if he was real would he save me. I was up in my bedroom late one nite after a party in 1978 and I repented of all sin....and guess what...I was saved instantly. There was no "knowing the truth" on that one. It was all about His mercy!

Now that I think about it..."knowing the truth" theory is pretty arrogant. I guess if there is no sin there can be no repentance? What a bogus lie that is!

More later on how I suffered so my parents could prove sickness was a lie...geesh I'm lucky I made it through.

On a later note any oldtimers go to Crystal lake Camps in the late 60's early 70's. I did have fun there. It's the only positive thing I remember about CS. I don't think we as kids took CS to seriously...just kind of went through the motions.

Would like to reunite with Crystal Lake campers...

RE: Mark's story

SharonMarie — Fri, 25 Apr 2008 10:30:28 GMT

Hello Mark,

I am so glad to read your insightful posts. So many of us, especially those of us who grew up in CS "radical reliance" homes during the 50's and 60's experience horrible situations with illness and pain, and downright abuse and neglect.

To live in a home where "Love" is constantly talked about with dreamy looks facing heavenward and where so little actual love is demonstrated is a hard thing.

My mother was so obsessed with her teacher, her practioner, and the "who's who" of the church, all the while neglecting her daughters, one of which was being molested by her teacher. I was the younger daughter, and I just learned to fend for myself, but I sure can remember sore throats so bad I could not swallow, painful burns that got infected, and on and on.

Why do you all suppose so many of us who have come out of CS have rejected any belief in God whatsoever? I spent many years as an unchurched skeptic until I finally came to the realization that I need God in my life, just not the way I had God in my childhood and my early adulthood.

This forum has been a real blessing to me.

Sharon

RE: Mark's story

Linda — Thu, 24 Apr 2008 13:11:54 GMT

Anonymous post #14470,

You sound like Don Pablo who also made [url=http://www.christianway.org/forums/Topic14188-13-1.aspx#bm14471]post 14471[/url] today. Welcome to the forums! I'm glad you have thrived in CS and that you have a good sense of when to use it and when to use "temporary means" (as Mrs. Eddy would say).

I have to disagree that CS agrees with the Bible, as I have found that they only appear to agree because Mrs. Eddy has given her own meanings to biblical terms. But that's a discussion for a different thread...

In any case, it's nice to have you here.

RE: Mark's story

IleftCSin74 — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 23:43:00 GMT

Linda:

I would enjoy reading your book. Maybe the book by Caroline Fraser too. My mother tries to discredit both Ms. Fraser and Rita Swan in her own book. I'm sure both of them are familiar with her name. She has on several occasions offered expert testimony in defense of religious exemptions at the State legislative level. As an author of a book critical of CS I would bet you have heard of my mom too. (Jamae W. Van Eck is the same person as Jamae W. Richardson). I might also like to read "The Unseen Shore" because it is from a guy's persective. I got a kick out of reading some of the reviews of your book and Ms. Fraser's book that are available on Amazon.com. It turns out that there are many more people angry at the Church than I had been aware of.

I still don't know whether I am ready to allow religion back into my life. I have long considered CS a cult. Several different websites call CS a cult, and I have met many Christians that have called CS a cult. I might have been wrong adding the words "strict fundamentalist" before the word cult for so long, and this must be where some of these issues over doctrine discrepancy arise from. Christian Science is not fundamentalist Christianity. I've thought for the last 37 years that there must have been something wrong with MBE, and often wondered how so many people could have been so led astray by a concept so unusual. I know very little about the Evangelical movement, and am deeply leery of fringe Christianity. My wife and I have talked about maybe giving the Lutheran Church down the street a try but that would still require a big first step. My family was Lutheran before becoming sidetracked so many years ago.

I don't mean to reject help offered but religion is such a black & white issue for me. Either you are with us or you are against us, there is NO middle ground. I am trying to figure-out why others left the CS Church, and how many became involved with other churches while I still so deeply harbor suspicion & resentment of my religious upbringing and religion in General. Many of these other people seem to have been able to compartmentalize their CS issues as outside of or foriegn to the greater Christian religion. I still haven't been able to. Why would I get angry with my mother-in-law for pushing a "return to the Catholic Church sermon"? Because it is just so similar to my long-standing problem with my own mother. At least some percentage of people that have escaped from the CS cult never believe in God or religion again. That is where I am currently at.

Thanks for pointing-out that some people are only trying to help. I may not be ready for or receptive to certain kinds of help from a religious standpoint. If I am ever to leave my suspicion and resentment behind it will probably be a slow process with a number of rocky steps between where I am at and my goal. I've always tried to resolve my issues outside of religion because I was so leery of religion. Just like Richard Drefuss' character in "What About Bob", I'm more inclined to believe in "Baby Steps" than in "Death-Therapy". Maybe someday I will be able to make that first big step. It helps to share what is bothering me and it helps to find groups of people struggling with the same issues. I'm certainly not ready to change my view of CS because the Church may be leaning away from traditional tenants in an effort to be more-inclusive. CS is what got me here and the Church is struggling to survive. If their situation is that desperate making some liberal changes in an attempt to survive wouldn't surprise me. Such changes are not going to influence me one way or the other, though. I have a long-established position on the Church that currently is not open to discussion of it's merits. Maybe someday, I will be able to write a book on my recovery from my long-buried issues with CS and religion.

I would enjoy reading your book.

Mark

RE: Mark's story

Linda — Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:05:35 GMT

[quote]Now it seems that if I want to think with less animosity towards religion that some think that I must relearn the Bible, or learn parts of it that I wasn't exposed to so many years ago. I feel that doing so is having to allow myself back in harm's way.[/quote]

IleftCSin74,

I urge you not to assume that people who tell you about their religious conversions are trying to force you into a conversion of your own. They are simply offering you resources and, yes, sometimes making suggestions in an effort to help you. You can accept or reject the suggestions, but please remember that they are being offered in a spirit of friendship.

[quote].***, the FAA requires pilots of non-pressurized aircraft to be on oxygen above 12,500 ft. [/quote]

We try to keep the forums clear of anything resembling expletives, so I removed a word from your #14451 above. No offense -- just a longstanding policy.

[quote]I left CS like I was leaving a cult. [/quote]

You might be interested in reading [url=http://www.amazon.com/Religion-That-Kills-Christian-Science/dp/1563841711/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208721590&sr=8-1]my book[/url], which examines CS with the question, "is CS a cult in the psychological sense of the word?"

RE: Mark's story

IleftCSin74 — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 22:22:20 GMT

Grace:

I guess that I am like your brother. I felt that the Church was a cult. I still feel that way. At the time that I left the Church, Vietnam was still going and the latter part of the "hippie" movement was still on, and I hung closely with the anti-War hippie crowd. All that you had to do to be popular was smoke lots of dope and do lots of crazy things. I had a car, which made it easier then it was for some of my friends. Sometime later I realized that I was one of the people that was doing a lot more dope then many others were, and even later I found out that many of us in the super-stoner crowd had been abused as kids. (Birds of a feather flock together). My folks were always either embarrassed of me or angry at me. I first sought treatment for my childhood sexual abuse issues in the mid 1980s because I was having problems with opposite-sex commitment issues. I met my first wife after a year of counseling.

Although I was married for nearly 3 years my first wife was an alcoholic with a violent temper. Up until then I had been a peaceful hippie-type. We had a couple of bad fights. My mother couldn't stand her and tried very hard to drive her away. The last big fight of my marriage was my mother calling my wife at work and drilling her for an hour on the phone. I came home from work and my wife was drunk and in tears. And she wanted to get a divorce unless I was willing to quit college and my job, sell the house, and immediately run away to Denver, where some of the rest of her family lived. I was on the Dean's list and was making great progress in my life. I had been off of coke for over 3 years. I didn't want to throw it all away. The next day while I was at work she didn't go to work and moved-out instead. We never reconciled. My mom won, or so she thought. 10 months later the economy went bad and I got cut back to part time on my job. A friend from the old coke days showed-up at the house and next thing that you know my depressed state led me right back to old thoughts. I lost everything in 1990 in Cleveland, then threw everything away and went back to Colorado, though not in time to rekindle with my ex-. I got stuck in a drug-induced haze for the next 6 years, ending with 2 trips to drug treatment in Minnesota. My last relapse was in the fall of 1999, the year that my dad died at age 68 from radical reliance on CS for the flu. A friend from drug treatment went off of the deep end and that helped drag me down. It didn't help when he showed-up at my house with my drug-of-choice in his hand.

Since November of 1999 I have been clean off of dope. I had almost a year clean after the 2nd MN trip. (Don't hang around your buddies from drug treatment too long, as they are several times as likely to relapse as the general population is likely to use). My life has been very good. I had another relationship go bad after a couple of years and it didn't put me over the edge this time. I dated for a year on Match.com and found my fiance there almost 2 years ago. We are thinking of a fall date. "What a strange trip it has been".

Just a month ago I went off on my future mother-in-law for her trying to get me to watch some "come back to the Catholic Church" video sermon. It wasn't the first time that she has touched on the religion issue. My mom strongly pushes my return to CS all the time, despite 5 family deaths from CS and all of the suffering. I still have deeply buried religious issues despite all of the counseling over so many years. My mom is 3rd generation CS and it's going to die with her. Neither of my sisters will have anything to do with the Church either. There will not be a 4th generation member to concieve a 5th generation heir. There is plenty of bitterness to go around in my family. She is a leading CS teacher and a published author on the subject and her kids want nothing to do with the Church.

I someday hope that your brother finds what he is looking for and is able to put the past behind him and embrace a relationship with his younger sister on terms mutually agreeable. Through a post by "Gentle Dove" I found a link to a site that belongs to an ex-CS therapist in Boston with fairly reasonable rates. This post was one of the more recent posts by Gentle Dove. It is a very thorough site with a tremendous amount of reading material on the subject of leaving CS and religious deprogramming. Maybe you could get your brother to look at the site if he is still struggling. I would also be willing for you to share my posts with him. I always looked for a support group for exCSers, and in the last couple of weeks have found several groups. EXCS in England is another group that has responded to me, as is Reachout Trust in England.

Thank-you for responding in detail and sharing. We are not alone. There are many people that still struggle with issues from their upbringing in CS. The most difficult type of recovery is when there are multiple issues driving each other. The escape from the cult and the distrust of traditional religious support groups combined with the childhood abuse issues and the drug habit and my mom driving away my first wife. It is a wonder that I am writing this letter to you. I overdosed 50 times in my life, at least. I just didn't care for so long. I went from job to job and just didn't care. I made good money but blew it all on dope. It took twice inpatient in drug treatment, and 3 times outpatient and 4 different therapists over a 10 year period to get most of my issues resolved. I thought that I could make it without support for the old CS issues but my quick unreasonable temper is proof that I still harbor resentment against the CS Church and religion in general..

The last 8 & 1/2 years has been really good for me. Maybe with the help of this group and others the next 30 years will be as good or better. Hope that all is well for you.

Sincerely

Mark

PS: I copied this document to Word so that it could be emailed.

RE: Mark's story

IleftCSin74 — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:48:46 GMT

Hello,

So you were sneaking over-the-counter drugs at age 14? My dad died at age 68 from the flu. He suffered for a couple of weeks with the flu. If he had just taken a good swig of Nyquil every night before bed he would have been able to get his normal sleep. Instead he strove to know "the truth", and was awake all night for a two weeks coughing and sneezing and in pain. He quickly became bedridden. He was still really sick when a mechanic friend came by to look at his Buick. He jumped out of bed and came down the stairs, and had a heart attack and died on the kitchen floor. Five years at M.I.T and 35 years in automotive engineering and manufacturing and financial administration down the drain for want of $6.00 worth of an over-the-counter medication. It cost him 10 to 15 years of life but think what it saved Social Security. Let alone his former employer's medical insurance provider in costs. Dayquil in the daytime and Nyquil at night: How hard is that?

Instead of being "born again" at age 17 I lost a friend from summer camp because the CS-summer camp thought that bringing an emergency oxygen supply along on a high-altitude climb would be the same thing as admitting that there might be a physical ailment that oxygen could alleviate, like high-altitude sickness. Not only that, but they had to ignore a CO State law requiring summer camps to bring oxygen along above a certain altitude when juvinile campers exceeded that altitude. [Expletive removed by moderator], the FAA requires pilots of non-pressurized aircraft to be on oxygen above 12,500 ft. The peak where this happened has a summit elevation over 14,000 ft. How can anyone think that campers from low altitude should be able to climb 14,000 ft mountains and be totally free from any ailment requiring oxygen? In this case, the never-ending search for "the truth" cost someone else's kid his life.

By the age of 14 I had already been molested by 3 different perpertrators from the CS Church, and another guy who was a strict Southern Baptist. At age 14 I was sent to Dayctoft School, a strict CS boarding School. I only went there for part of 9th grade. A year later 20 guys in the boys dorm got polio. There had been a polio vaccine for 20 years by then. I'm afraid that not taking a common vaccine on religious-exemption grounds was a very expensive mistake for the 20 boys and their families, and probably was one of the early coffin nails that eventually killed the school 15 years later.

I was "saved" in high school, and in college, and at a couple of truckstops, and in Cleveland as recently as 1989. I am still highly suspicious of CS and religion in general. I did not come to this site seeking to rekindle long-dormant religious beliefs. I came here to try to read other's stories and identify with their pain, in the hope that I might not have such a hair-trigger when the subject of religion is breached. I almost chewed my fiance's mom's head off because she wanted me to watch a tape about coming back to the Catholic Church. Just today she left one of their pamphlets out entitled "When You Are Angry at the Church". I lot of people see my stance as very odd even though I am one of 25 milion Americans that does not believe in a God. That is 300 times as many people as there are members of the CS Church.

Thanks for responding and your concern. 34 years after I left CS I wouldn't remember enough of MBE's phrases to compare to the Bible. I don't see the fascination with the doctrine issues some people have. I haven't believed one thing that MBE taught since the early 1970s. I left CS like I was leaving a cult. I tried to get as far away from them as possible. Now it seems that if I want to think with less animosity towards religion that some think that I must relearn the Bible, or learn parts of it that I wasn't exposed to so many years ago. I feel that doing so is having to allow myself back in harm's way. Clearly there is more to it than just reading the Bible. Somehow I have to figure-out how to give-up my animosity and fear. I'm a very large tough guy and don't scare easily. But I may not be ready to allow the threat of religion back into my life.

Best regards,

Mark

RE: Mark's story

zoarean — Sat, 19 Apr 2008 09:35:35 GMT

Mark,

Concerning your statement:

"I left the Church because I was tired of having to suffer needlessly in the name of our Church when it became terribly obvious that most people outside CS didn't suffer like we did. They just took a pill, or chomped down a Tums, or used nasal spray, etc, to solve their ills. Every headache or case of heartburn or every cold or case of the flu that I had for 17 years I was expected to suffer with."

I had some similar experiences as a child growing up in CS. I was radically reliant ("orthodox" as you term it) like my parents- never considering internal medication of any sort & even hating external medications such as my "prescription" glasses. I would wear them as little as possible, trying to "know the truth" instead (& squinting a lot). I was 14 & had been suffering from a cold & the resultant nasal congestion for a week when it became so insufferable that I decided to sneak down to the drug store to buy some nasal spray. Oh, what an incredible relief! It was like the "Excedrin moment" you've mentioned. Over the next three years, I hid several "illegal" drugs in my room- aspirin, Pepto, & the like, while still considering myself CS. I thought in true CS fashion: "I'm suffering because there must be something I'm just not understanding." How many times have those who have had any extended contact with CS heard that one?! But, unlike many CSists, I saw no need to continue to suffer pointlessly until I discovered that golden nugget of truth I thought I was lacking. I stayed in CS while praying for understanding.

When I was 17, friends & strangers alike in my life became different- my best friend got "saved" & told me about how much the cross of Christ meant to him. The girl I was dating told me that she decided she couldn't see me anymore because I didn't hold to the Bible as absolute truth. Strangers would ask me if I "knew" Jesus as my Savior while I was stocking shelves in the grocery store. I strongly defended CS to all the above, but after awhile, I sensed a strong urging to simply sit down & read the Bible to find out the truth for myself. In short order, I realized a simple, literal reading of Scripture countered CS on every one it's main tenets. I left CS & six months later became a true Christian- defined as one who looks personally to Jesus & His cross as their salvation while concomitantly attempting to follow Christ's instruction & example. Later I realized God had heard my prayer & gave me the understanding I desperately needed. So I guess I experienced at least two of the levels of CS dedication that you mention.

But my prayer for you is that you would not always lump all who use the name "Christian" together in the same basket. As a child, I was jumped by a couple of Hispanic kids one day & held a grudge against all Hispanics for a short time thereafter. I soon realized, though interaction, that there were many other Hispanics who were not at all mean-spirited like the two I had encountered previously. The stereotype didn't fit for me at that time & I pray that you would likewise see that the mainstream of Christianity shouldn't be colored with the same dark brush you would rightly color the fringe elements with. Yes, CS is ugly & even brutish with it's often cold disregard for human suffering, but don't let that bad experience keep you from having a wonderful, fulfilling relationship with true Christianity & most importantly, the true Christ.

zoarean

RE: Mark's story

IleftCSin74 — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:18:11 GMT

Steve: Part 2

One of the problems back in those days was that there was no internet. No possible way to check the credentials of a prospective employee besides with the telephone or in writing. Summer camps were a haven for child sexual predators at one time, and so were boarding schools. I had a friend once who went to truck driving school. After graduating he couldn't find a job as a student trucker close enough to home. So the owner of the trucking school agreed to supply him a false reference. After that he did get hired somewhere because they thought that he had a year of experience. Years ago it was possible to go from camp to camp to camp as long as they didn't get caught. It is like the scandal in the Catholic Church. Once they got caught the Church just relocated them to a different parish. I wonder how much of that went on in the CS Church? Get caught at Daycroft, get a job at the Cedars?

With the internet it is now possible to be fairly thorough researching someone's background. Back in 1969 it was virtually impossible to find-out much about people that applied for jobs. Especially if they had a false reference.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

Mark

RE: Mark's story

IleftCSin74 — Fri, 18 Apr 2008 02:02:36 GMT

Steve:

Other than watching my mother or a couple of friends of hers, I have no experience in the Church since the mid-1970s. I suspect CS is a lot like Judaism. You have your Orthodox members, your conservative members, and your reform members. My mother has as many as 100 calls a day from people who call her just for her expertise in faith-healing. This amounts to 1/10th of 1% of the entire current membership of the CS Church. There are at least 150 other practioner/teachers who have similar qualifications, and as many as several hundred more active practitioners. My mom teaches a class every summer for 15 or 20 students, and gives an address in front of the assembled congregation at the Mother Church every fall. I would guess that as much as 10% of the Church membership is "Orthodox" like my mom, and they rely on faith-healing all of the time, and would never even consider the medical community a possible option. Another 30% to 40% are "conservative", who rely on faith-healing almost all of the time. This leaves at least half of the membership under the "reform" category. Reform CSers probably rely as much or more on the medical community as they do on prayer. It is possible that the Church has begun to embrace the less-conservative membership as it stuggles to survive. It is also possible that the reform CS group is growing as a total percentage of membership. My mother, dad, step-dad, my mom's mother, and my dad's dad all have been First or Second Reader numerous times each. They all have served on their local church's Board of Directors, and in many other positions. My dad's dad was Donovan Richardson, the Chief Editorial Writer of the Monitor from the 1940s into the 1960s. My upbringing was about strict adherance to the tenants of CS healing. My mother was very suspicious of the medical community and it's motives, and also very suspicious that the Church leadership would find out if we ever used medicine instead of CS healing. I have a hard time reconciling your statement about the present direction of the Church to my experience. Of course, my family and experience is all about the Orthodox side of CS. I left the Church when it was still crowded and viable. My mother is in a position sort of like the leadership of one of these Mormon splinter-sects. She thinks that she is the next coming of MBE, and she is going to save the Church.

So Principia is still open. I attended two CS boarding schools that are no longer in business. Daycroft School in Greenwich, CT, was an Ivy League-type prep school that offered a strict CS education for grades 7 to 12. It was the size of a small college, with at least 10 major buildings and at least 100 acres of grounds. The gym held 500 people and the football stadium probably 1,000 or more. When I attended in 1971 they might have had a student body of 300 students, which even then was well below capacity. Desert Sun School in Idyllwyld, CA was much smaller, with a total student body of maybe 70 or 80 students. I went there for a short time in 1974. Both closed their doors by 1992. But I'm not worried about Principia's future as my step-dad just bequeathed them a 7-figure sum. I went to 2 colleges: Western Michigan Univ. in Kalamazoo, MI, and Cleveland State Univ, in downtown Cleveland, OH, both over 22,000 studentsand graduated from a large public high school in suburban Detroit. My folks toured me through Principia back in the late 1960s, as well as tried to get me admitted into Cranbrook School in Bloomfield Hills, MI. After my trip to Daycroft I wasn't interested though.

Maybe because I had already lost my trust of CS and organized religion by 1972, I do not have the same issues with comparing MBE's interpretation of the Bible vs more mainstream religions interpretations. I don't compare Biblical phrases and any discrepancies are not the reason that I left the Church. I left the Church because I was tired of having to suffer needlessly in the name of our Church when it became terribly obvious that most people outside CS didn't suffer like we did. They just took a pill, or chomped down a Tums, or used nasal spray, etc, to solve their ills. Every headache or case of heartburn or every cold or case of the flu that I had for 17 years I was expected to suffer with. I crashed on my bicycle and got road rash and I was expected to suffer. I was NEVER healed of anything that I can remember. There was lots and lots of suffering to be had growing-up in the more-conservative half of the Church back then. I just don't understand the reform-side of the church, and because my trust has for so long been destroyed, I wouldn't even think about reconsidering my reasons for leaving CS. I look at my upbringing in CS as having a noose around my neck that 34 years of history has been unable to take away from me. I think that MBE's religious teachings are a sham that was designed to make herself wealthy and famous, and that she was somewhere near crazy. Obviously, others think differently.

I could see that there might be other reasons to leave the church and people that have left much more recently than I did. You might have left because of discrepancies in doctrine, so may have others. My sisters and I left because we were really tired of all of the needless suffering. I think that CS healing is mostly a fraud. It is interesting how much of a difference our positions are. The Pasadena, CA CS church is as conservative as any CS church that I have ever seen. And their membership is mostly elderly. The nearby San Marino church is much smaller and has a younger crowd. Recent talk of merging the two churches fell apart over distribution of power positions. The senior church's leadership was unwilling to share power with the junior church. The San Marino church might survive for some time. I don't see how the Pasadena church can without a bunch of money being thrown at the problem.

I hope that I have answered some of your questions. Even if the Church has almost completely changed from 35 years ago I am not interested. There are still those who will deny their children medical care in the name of the Church and MBE. As much as 40% to 50% of the Church membership is still in that category. Many churches have outstanding youth recreation programs. Most churches are much larger and more-mainstream than the CS Church. Figure 100,000 divided by 300 million. (0.033%) That is the percentage of CS members to the total population of the US. I realize that 10% of us are atheists. Thats 30 million atheists vs 100,000 CSers. There are 7 million Scientologists. Isn't Scientology considered a cult? There are almost as many Jehovah's Witnesses. Aren't they considered a cult too? Check-out Reachout Trust's site in England. That's where I found Kathy at EXCS-UK.

I hope that someday you will resolve the issues that brought you to this group. I am hoping that communicating with ex-CSers might help me to loose the CS-noose that has hung around my neck for way too long. Hearing that some part of the Church is becoming more moderate is not suprising, but irrelevant. I have been admonished plenty of times for seeing a much different picture then others do. I'm guessing that those who defend the CS Church didn't have to go through nearly as much pain and suffering as needlessly as I did.

Mark

Mark's story

Linda — Wed, 16 Apr 2008 09:05:25 GMT

IleftCSin74 had some problems posting his story and then a followup post, so I am posting them at his request. -- Linda

I left CS in 1974. I had a very difficult upbringing at the hands of a CS Practitioner. My Mom's mother, my Dad's dad, and my Dad himself, ALL faith-healed themselves to death. Both sides of my family joined the CS Church in the 1920s or 1930s. My dad's father was the Chief Editorial Writer for the Monitor from the 1940s through the 1960s. My upbringing was full of abuse and neglect. My mom claims that I had a 'miraculous' healing of meningitis at the age of 2. Of course, I don't remember it. I do remember my mom accusing me of not having enough faith to heal athlete's foot at the age of 7. I thought for the last 43 years that I was unique, but Kathy at EXCS-UK proved that I wasn't alone. At the age of 12 I broke my left leg skiing. (It was a twist fracture of the front bone in my lower left leg, as the ski binding didn't release). My mom refused to allow the medical personnel at the ski resort to send me to a hospital, as this was "against our religion". Instead we went home, where she tried to faith-heal me for 3 days. When my dad returned from a business trip they argued over him calling an ambulance. When we arrived at the hospital the ER doctor told us that the bone would have to be reset, and started to prepare a pain injection. My mother loudly objected, saying that it was "against our religion"! The doctor pleaded with her, to no avail. Why he didn't just have her removed from the ER is a mystery. What followed was like torture, as my broken leg was reset without any medication. The "healing" of my broken leg was proclaimed a "miraculous" healing, and published by my mom. Now she denies that it ever happened. My memory must be wrong, I'm told. In separate incidents, I also sprained an ankle 3 times, broke both thumbs separately, and also my nose was broken. In none of these cases was ANY medical care provided.

I was molested numerous times at the hands of older boys and men from the CS Church that my parents trusted implicitly and without reservation, just because they were from the Church. I attended the Cedars camp in MO, a CS summer camp in the late 1960s. One counselor had all of us boys skinny-dip while he watched. Then later on he came into our cabin and molested a couple of us while we were sleeping. We might have been 11 years old. Between the ages of 8 & 10 a CS male babysitter molested me, and several times at 13 to 14 a former Vietnam-era ex-Marine (from our church) molested me. At age 14 I was sent to Daycroft School in CT. I only lasted a year before I left there. I didn't fit in in the CS/Ivy League prep setting. Good thing too, as the next Fall the school suffered an outbreak of polio in the boy's dorm. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 boys were infected, 20 years after a polio vaccine had been discovered. One of them was my former roommate. What do you bet that at least part of the problem was that school authorities didn't approach the medical community right away. After all, doing so would have been "against our religion". I attended AU in Colorado twice, and a friend of mine died there in 1974 trying to climb a 14,000 ft peak. He would probably still be alive if AU hadn't thought that they should be exempt from a CO. State law concerning camps that take juvenile campers above 10,000 ft elevation and carrying an emergency oxygen supply. I know: Emergency oxygen is "against our religion". Tim's parents refused to sue the camp because what happened was "God's will", and Tim's name and story is missing from any website about kids killed by reliance on Christian Science.

I left CS in 1974, but my faith had died several years earlier. In high school I was drinking and using illegal drugs. (I first smoked pot at Daycroft)! One Saturday night I went out with friends and by 11:00 PM was too intoxicated to drive home. I called home and my mom acquiesced and allowed me to stay overnight at a friend's house. (She warned me to come to church the following day under penalty of losing my car). The next morning I awoke late with a big headache. My friend gave me 2 Excedrin’s and I drove straight to the church, wearing my Saturday night street getup. By the time I arrived I had experienced my first "healing" thanks to an over-the-counter medication, as my headache was gone. My mom met me at the door and there was a big scene as she refused to admit me, as I wasn't "dressed fit to see the Lord". Several long-time members argued that I was welcome no matter that I was wearing blue jeans and a black leather coat. I burned rubber all the way out of the driveway and earned a great personal victory. Mom would not allow me to attend because she was so embarrassed by that Sunday. Except for attending once each to hear my mom and step-dad read at their new home in Pasadena, CA I haven't attended since that Sunday in the Fall of 1974.

My step-dad kicked me out of their house when I was out there on vacation a couple of years ago. I suggested that his church needed to downsize because they were only drawing 5% of capacity and were having constant financial questions. Their Pasadena church, the last of 3 grand Pasadena-area churches still open, is in a hot development area, and the land is worth many millions. I suggested selling 3/4ths of the land, and building a new smaller church behind the Reading Room, which is on Green St, 1 block east of the Paseo mall. Just the value of the sold land would have been enough to construct the new church and provide a stipend to pay for it's upkeep in perpetuity. He roared that it was the fault of all of us "ungrateful" children that have left the Church, and that is why they are struggling to make ends meet. He was then on the church Board. I spent the rest of the vacation in a motel. And I am right. There is no way that 100 mainly elderly members can support an eighty year-old edifice that was designed to hold 2,000 people. And because of the credit crisis, that chance has likely come and gone. Why do I care? Because I tired of seeing my mom pump $500 or $1,000 into the collection plate every Sunday so that the place doesn't go under.

My mom is a leading Practitioner, Teacher, and Lecturer, and has published a book on CS/spiritual healing. I was at her house (my step-dad died last summer) a few weeks ago. Her phone rings nearly constantly. One woman called back at least 5 times, obviously in great pain and quite fearful. Mom gave her same pat line about working on her thinking, told her that she would "work", whatever that means, and told her to call back if she had any more trouble, which obviously this woman must have had. And before much work could be done, the phone rang again, with another victim in desperation. It oh so reminded me of the many nights of suffering in my childhood, when there were only a few words from a practitioner to comfort me. I have to wonder if part of the gig isn't voice hypnotism, by varying delivery speed and cadence. Otherwise it is a sham, in my opinion. The only thing that mom is going to do for certain is send them a bill. She makes $1,000 per day, or more. Both of my sisters and I have long left the CS Church, and all 3 of us are professed atheists now. All of us have too many painful memories to ever go back though mom pushes that idea every day. She is rich and none of us kids are. I always make sure that some of her money goes to liberal causes when she sends it.

I got off of illegal drugs 10 years ago, and the last decade has been the best years of my life. I still struggle with the repressed pain of my upbringing though. My little sister suggested BLUE WINDOWS to me recently. I looked-up a couple of reviews and my pain was brought up again. Her site led me to others including to Kathy's EXCS-UK site and I got an email back from her, all the way from England. (I have since received more from England). I've looked for ex-CS groups here for many years without success. I found help for my other problems in Minnesota and Colorado years ago. I've still got the CS-thing around my neck like a noose though. It's likely that mom will be around for 10 or more years and us kids will constantly be bombarded with her religious angst for the duration.

Thanks for letting me share on your site, and thanks for sharing your stories. I hope that all of you have been able to put the past into perspective and move above it.

Mark

Here's the second post:

I found this group through the group ex-CS UK, and did get a personal response from that group's founder, Kathy, (who's story appears on your site also).

I am basically looking for a group of ex- Christian Scientists who have left the church because of the abuse they suffered as children in the name of religion. My story is in some respects similar th Kathy's story. My mother is an extremely devoted, accomplished Practitioner and Teacher. She still laments the fact that her message was not strong enough to keep any of her children in the religion. We all left because we thought that our upbringing in Science was abusive. All of us discovered as teenagers that over-the-counter medications could either "heal" or provide relief for many ailments that we had been expected to just suffer with growing-up. None of us left the church to subsequently join other churches. My little sister went through religious de-programming counseling, and is probably the most aggressive "denouncer" of the Church and the abuse we suffered as children through strict reliance on the "healing" tenants of CS, of us 3 kids. I was the eldest child. I was the one who had to endure more of the timeframe before my mother became a Practitioner back in the late 1960s, when I was already close to 12 years old. My little sister was 5 or 6 when my mother became a Practitioner, though I'm not sure that this changed much. It may have made mother even more reliant on the CS-approach.

Unlike in Kathy's case, I have not had to suffer through the rigors of CS invalid or senior care. Most of my close relatives did not survive CS-treatment and never became elderly. All died rather suddenly when they seemed to be in fairly good health. All three probably would have lived many more years if they had just taken over-the-counter medications instead of relying exclusively on CS-teachings. Only my dad's mother survived past age 79. My dad was well-off enough to afford assisted-living for his mom. After surviving a 2nd stroke, my dad put his mother in a CS "nursing" facility in Columbus, OH, 150 miles from home, where she died a few years later. I only saw her a few times during her time in Columbus, and it was plain that her dementia had progressed to the point where she couldn't remember who I was. She scarcely could remember who my dad was. She lived to age 93. All that I could think of was how much happier her later years might have been without CS. Certainly my grandfather might have lived a lot later then age 67, and my dad would have lived well beyond 68, if they had just taken OTC medications instead of radically relying on CS. Even my mother has used some of her great wealth to help pay for various of her kids and grandkids medical issues. Does she feel some guilt? Has this caused some shift in policy within her?

Thanks again,

Mark