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RE: Attitudes and Impact re. Sickness and Wellness in Society and CS

Do_Go_Be_Man — Sun, 04 May 2008 17:54:10 GMT

[b][Moderator's note: this message has been moved to the On the Lighter Side » Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed thread][/b]

RE: Attitudes and Impact re. Sickness and Wellness in Society and CS

Rosebud3 — Sat, 03 May 2008 17:18:52 GMT

Do Go Be Man,

I saw "Expelled no intelligence allowed" today. I know people have mentioned this in other parts of the forums. I wanted to say the part that stood out to me was when they showed the hideous concentration camps where people who were "disposable" due to illness etc. were killed, cremated.It goes with the theme I started about illness and the impact it has on society. Someone with a disability would definitely be eliminated.

This is still interesting to me in how MBE in her time was trying to create some system that was ultimate, absolute and would heal people. Unfortunately it appears that it created in many cases a culture of fear and denial. Perhaps we need to learn to love and care for those we would otherwise ignore. 100 years ago sick persons were placed in poor houses which were awful places where contamination and fatal illness spread amongst innocent children. Poverty seems to go hand in hand with illness. I actually worked in a community long term hospital that was originally one of these poor houses for the disenfranchised.

I think this is all interesting relative to MBE's period. The Civil War was involved, women's rights were just beginning, also African Americans and the underground railroad, to mention a few. Perhaps today her view on things would be different.Just thought this was interesting.Perhaps it could bring some perspective to this whole thing. Also, the church had a major role in caring for the sick, but that has seemed more recently to be put in the hands of the hospital. My Pastor had to have special permission to see me in the hospital related to hippa. Let's make some room for these thoughts. Perhaps we can learn something.

RE: Attitudes and Impact re. Sickness and Wellness in Society and CS

Rosebud3 — Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:44:45 GMT

Just wanted to mention I forgot to log-in again and the e-mail responding to Do Go Be Man was mine.

RE: Attitudes and Impact re. Sickness and Wellness in Society and CS

Do_Go_Be_Man — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 19:21:35 GMT

Rosebud3,

[quote]I have been reading a lot about people in CS who felt guilty when they were sick, suffered for unnecessary reasons and my heart goes out to them. As I have posted before I have extended family members in CS and have lost someone very dear to me that I believe could easily still be alive today.[/quote]
When family and friends die of causes such as pancreatic cancer or congestive heart failure, there is a level of sadness and even a sense of hopelessness that accompanies such occasions. Even when such diseases could have been diagnosed earlier and addressed through medication or lifestyle changes, we have certain feelings of guilt.

One of the problems, other than obvious theological differences, that I have with CS is that I've lost so many friends, family, and others to things such as flu, poisoning through ignoring basic warnings, and simple disorders to treat such as dehydration. Granted, influenza is still considered a deadly disease. In so many cases, it is quite treatable with very simple measures unknown or unacknowledged in MBE's time.

While I can't vouch for Mark's story regarding his friend dying of altitude sickness (I wasn't there and haven't seen the documentation), it does sound like a familiar scenario to me. I was once "healed" of altitude sickness after being unconscious for three days while a CS practitioner prayed for me. A change to a lower elevation probably had a lot to do with my healing. At the time, I gave thanks to CS/MBE/S&H. My perspective many years later likely appears to represent a lower sense of gratitude to them.

[quote]I am opening this topic because I think sickness and the impact it has on the ill and on those around them really does link into this.[/quote]
I absolutely agree that the mental, emotional, and physical environment of a patient including those around them impacts healing. As an RN, I'm sure you can attest to that anecdotally. Medical studies have also demonstrated the impact of bedside manner and other issues. I believe that it was Norman Vincent Peale that credits laughter with curing his cancer or such. Laughter is often the best medicine.

Our sense of self-worth, especially for Americans, is indeed strongly linked to our sense of productivity. You don't, however, need to go back to Biblical times to find misunderstandings of the causes of illness. I've been told that the single greatest advance in medical history was the discovery of the importance of hand washing.

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis]Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis[/url] was thought a fool during his lifetime for advocating handwashing. He died in 1865, ten years before the publication of S&H. Louis Pasteur who finally brought respectability to germs was a contemporary of MBE. In that era, small changes in what we now consider basic care including the patient's mental state could make large differences in patient survival and healing. Such changes still make a difference, but modern care includes clean hands, antibiotics, oxygen, proper nutrition, advanced surgeries, etc. Physicians and nurses still lose patients, but imagine the differences in care and success between now and the times before World War II.

As a child I lost a non-CS friend to leukemia which was then almost automatically considered a fatal disease. Today, survival of leukemia is routine. Many of our classmates suffered from polio. I doubt my children know anyone who knows someone who has had polio. Smallpox was common in an area I lived. Today, it is officially eradicated from the entire world.

[quote]Doesn't a lot of this have to do with economy? I wanted to try CS and have fortunately had a kind practitioner who responds to me quickly and helps me to feel more positive when I feel disgusted with myself or feel devalued and abused by others.[/quote]
The kindness and hope that CS practitioners offer is indeed comforting. Imagine if all surgeons had that ability to be kind and hopeful. Unfortunately, most have terrible personalities resulting from their training, overwork, and mechanical nature of their perspective of the human body. I recall, however, the great sense of comfort I felt as my last surgery began with my surgeon and surgical staff gathered around me to pray for me, my family, and for their wisdom.

[quote]I hoped for radical healing so I would never be a burden again. Think of MBE's time period and the economics in her situation. It was horrible and when she was in poverty, had lost Quimby and slipped she came up with her revelation and then essentially developed a huge and dynamic support system for herself and perhaps, she hoped,for others.[/quote]
The myth of MBE's radical healing from her slip on the ice does appear attractive. Unfortunately, even CS literature provides at least pieces of the true story. Her diagnosis was somewhat self made. As I now understand it, she essentially had a quick prognosis that she was dying based on limited and inaccurate medical knowledge. A later prognosis indicated her condition was less severe. Eventually, she did not die though did attempt to sue the city for irreparable harm after her alleged complete and near instantaneous healing.

[quote]Does anyone know how difficult it is to get SSD even when you truly qualify for it, even if you'd rather be working?[/quote]
No doubt about it, our system of paying for medical care is messed up with no easy solution at hand. Put it in the hands of the government and you establish financial disincentives to study and practice medicine and limit access to care. Keep it fully in the capitalist market economy and not everyone can afford care.

Practitioner bills do seem easier to handle than physician invoices and medical filings. Are you aware, however, that MBE intended for practitioner fees to be on par with physician fees? Supply and demand likely impacted that concept.

Do Go Be Man
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Attitudes and Impact re. Sickness and Wellness in Society and CS

Rosebud3 — Sun, 27 Apr 2008 13:38:03 GMT

Hi,

I have been reading a lot about people in CS who felt guilty when they were sick, suffered for unnecessary reasons and my heart goes out to them. As I have posted before I have extended family members in CS and have lost someone very dear to me that I believe could easily still be alive today.

I am opening this topic because I think sickness and the impact it has on the ill and on those around them really does link into this. I am an RN, as I have said, and have also had a long term disabling condition. At times I can not work. People are very disappointed in me, employers, family etc. A lot of it has to do with values we have in our culture of productivity and survival of the economy. Therefore, for many of us, including myself, a lot of guilt comes with illness. Back in the biblical time people thought a person was sick perhaps because of their sin or a parent's sin.

Doesn't a lot of this have to do with economy? I wanted to try CS and have fortunately had a kind practitioner who responds to me quickly and helps me to feel more positive when I feel disgusted with myself or feel devalued and abused by others. I hoped for radical healing so I would never be a burden again. Think of MBE's time period and the economics in her situation. It was horrible and when she was in poverty, had lost Quimby and slipped she came up with her revelation and then essentially developed a huge and dynamic support system for herself and perhaps, she hoped,for others.

People who are ill are often considered a drain, a cost to the economy, and now with health insurance as it is we face incredible challenges. Does anyone know how difficult it is to get SSD even when you truly qualify for it, even if you'd rather be working? And that is a system that was designed as insurance for a person who has a legal disability. I payed in to that and am on a 2 year waiting list and I still want to work. Sickness seems to equal lack of value and productivity in our culture, so to find some ultimate answer would solve and make safe humanity's well being. Just thought this was an interesting train of thought and would be so grateful to hear from others.