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RE: When health becomes an obsession

Linda — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 14:19:32 GMT

You're welcome -- I'm glad to help.

[quote]Interestingly enough, a CS practitioner has been saying the same thing to me, just in a different way.[/quote]

I heard a lot of good ideas, values, and perspectives while I was in Christian Science. But I was surprised to discover that, after leaving CS, most of the valuable stuff I had learned in CS could also be found outside of CS; I didn't need to put up with the "not so good CS stuff" in order to get it. I'm glad that your practitioner's input is proving valuable.

RE: When health becomes an obsession

Rosebud3 — Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:10:30 GMT

Dear Linda,

Thank-you so much for taking the time to respond. Interestingly enough, a CS practitioner has been saying the same thing to me, just in a different way. I will look up that book on boundaries. I am actually in a situation now that is definitely all about boundaries in regards to emplyment.

RE: When health becomes an obsession

Linda — Sat, 19 Jul 2008 08:43:56 GMT

Rosebud3,

After reading my post, someone sent me a private message saying that they had been greatly helped by a book called [url=http://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Take-Control-Your/dp/0310247454/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1216481516&sr=8-1]Boundaries[/url], by Cloud and Townsend. It goes into a lot of detail about not carrying other people's emotional baggage. The person found great freedom in reading the book and thought you might enjoy knowing about it.

RE: When health becomes an obsession

Linda — Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:55:31 GMT

Rosebud3,

Sorry it has take me so long to get back to you. I was traveling and didn't have time to sit and really think through a reply.

[quote]The thing is that now that I have made some lovely friends and structured my life around this system,I gradually found it to de-value a significant part of me and that is my being an RN and also the way I had related to God. [/quote]

I'm not surprised that it would be rough being both a Christian Scientist and a medical nurse. Christian Science treatments and medical treatments can't be used together, so it makes sense that trying to do your nursing job while living as a CSist would literally tear you apart from the inside. It's one thing to do one or the other, but I'll guess that doing both would set up a real internal conflict.

Regarding how you relate to God -- the CS concept of God is very different from the God I see described in the Bible. So changing to CS would almost have to change the way you relate to God.

[quote]I think I am also experiencing depression due to seeing so much human trauma in my life and trying to put it into some context and not let it ( the horrible images of disease) hurt me over and over.[/quote]

I'm not a nurse so haven't seen the amount of suffering that you have. But I'll share a couple of perspectives that might be helpful. Pastors see a lot of emotional and spiritual suffering as they help the people in their church go through very tough times. My pastor told me that the way he dealt with it was not to carry his people's burdens for them, but to help them manage their burdens. He said that if he took the pain of all those people upon himself he'd go crazy -- so he found it best to help them work through their issues without actually internalizing the issues himself. I didn't understand that fully until I started talking and corresponding with hundreds of people who had been hurt deeply by their experiences in CS. At first I would get very emotionally involved, but over time (and as I settled some of my own issues) I have found it better to listen, respond, pray, and empathize without letting the issues get to me (most of the time, anyway...). I care and feel deeply for the person, but I don't let their situation pull me down emotionally. Now to your situation: I suspect that if you discuss the issue with fellow nurses, you will find that the ones who don't become emotionally overwhelmed with the job are the ones who are able to care and help without internalizing the images they see. It's not a denial of the situation, but a realization that one can best help by keeping a bit of emotional distance. It's sort of like when I took lifesaving lessons many years ago; we were taught how to rescue the drowning victim without being drowned ourselves.

[quote]I find that grieving is a very delayed process for me and I think CS helped me feel safe [/quote]

CS tends to help people bury grief, but burried grief usually can't be supressed forever and has to be dealt with at some point. Part of the difficulty I had after leaving CS was that I had a lot of unprocessed emotions that finally bubbled to the surface.

[quote]I think I recall that you said it was very hard for you to let CS go but you just found that it was not scripturally correct, nor could be the Truth. How did you rediscover yourself and your relationship with God and even grow deeper?[/quote]

Rediscovering myself took a lot of emotional work (including some good counseling) and prayer. I also found it very helpful to journal my thoughts because it helped me sort them out and also get them "safely onto paper" where I knew I wouldn't lose or forget them. Writing them down allowed me to "put them down" and not keep carrying them around in the back of my mind. I would often begin by writing out a feeling (like "I feel like I'm going to lose it...") and then just keep writing in response to the feeling. It was interesting how things would come into focus as I wrote.

I have also found it very helpful to really study the Bible. When I first left CS, my pastor and his wife took me through a discipleship class that took me through the basic doctrines of Christianity and reasons for various church practices. It gave me a format for weekly Bible study and discussion and really helped me get a good foundation in biblical Christianity. Since then I have done many studies on my own using a Strong's Concordance (a concordance that allows you to look up the Hebrew or Greek words from which any word in the Bible is translated. For example, it will differentiate between the various Greek words that all get translated into English as "love"). I've also used a Nave's Topical Bible, which allows you to look up a word or phrase and see all the Bible verses that use that word all grouped ino one place -- which is great for browsing a topic. Recently I have enjoyed several [url=http://www.precept.org/site/PageServer]Precept[/url] Bible studies led by one of our pastors, as the Precept study method tends to look carefully at one Bible book or topic at a time and lends itself to great group discussion.

[quote] I am still in a depression and letting go of this feels like another big hole. And I would like to keep the new friends I made, yet not lose my values in the process. [/quote]

Depression is rough (been there). My heart goes out to you as you deal with it. I know it makes the hole feel bigger as you step away from CS. But CSists who are really friends will be remain friends even if you choose a different religion.

When I was deep in depression and desparately trying to deal with my emotional baggage, my prayer became "Father, please show me the next step." All I could deal with was the next step -- not two steps. And He did take me to wholeness, one step at a time.

RE: When health becomes an obsession

Grace — Wed, 02 Jul 2008 03:04:50 GMT

Thank you so very much, Do_Go, Linda and Rosebud,

What wonderful responses, each one! I keep trying to start a response but then find myself struggling to find the right words, emotions getting in the way and having to start again. . . . . you've each given me great food for thought and even though I don't have much time at the moment, I just want to say thank you for answering so honestly and providing good Bible references and affirmations. I keep referring back to them. God is so good!

RE: When health becomes an obsession

Linda — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 20:38:59 GMT

Rosebud3,

So sorry to hear that you have struggled so much. I'm traveling right now and probably won't have time to give you a well thought-out answer for a few days, but I do want to respond. I wasn't a practitioner although I did spend 30 years in CS, was a Mother Church member, spent 4 years at Principia College, and finally wrote a book analyzing how CS affects people after breaking free from it myself. You might want to read my personal story in the [url=http://www.christianway.org/Personal%20Stories/personal_stories2.htm]Personal Stories[/url] section of the Christian Way web site.

I'll get back to you later when time isn't so short...

RE: When health becomes an obsession

Rosebud3 — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 12:39:35 GMT

Dear Linda,

This is such practical and good advice to those of us who worry and obsess. I find it particularly helpful that you have been a CS practitioner and you are able to speak and see things as you do. I wanted to ask for help, ideas, because I have been really working hard on CS for maybe 2 years now and I need to let it go. I started it when I was in a deep depression and the people in the reading rooms are so kind and helpful, supportive. Also, I like writing and studying a lot so it gave me a structured way to really delve into the Bible and for me MBE was a comfort.

I knew that when I began this it was something hat I could not committ to because one would have to believe MBE was the only way to interpret scriptures. I even discussed this with my physician and told him I knew that I was using this as what I referred to as a "transitional object" (sort of like a warm blanky to get through a bad time. )Also I wanted to find value in my family that are CS and to understand their choices. I love them all so dearly but haven't really connected since my Uncle's death, aside from a few brief chats with my Aunt. She really affirmed for me at that bad time that I wasn't falling off the face of the earth, that God was caring for me, although my depression paints the world so bleak.

The thing is that now that I have made some lovely friends and structured my life around this system,I gradually found it to de-value a significant part of me and that is my being an RN and also the way I had related to God. It almost began to seem to me that if I were to continue that employment, ever ,I am doing harm to the progress of human beings. And believe me, often medicine has dissapointed me. I think I am also experiencing depression due to seeing so much human trauma in my life and trying to put it into some context and not let it ( the horrible images of disease) hurt me over and over. I find that grieving is a very delayed process for me and I think CS helped me feel safe but at this time I feel I need to rediscover as I am starting to do, as in writing to Grace, who I am with God and where I am at now, and where to go from here.

I think I recall that you said it was very hard for you to let CS go but you just found that it was not scripturally correct, nor could be the Truth. How did you rediscover yourself and your relationship with God and even grow deeper?God is God and even things in CS happened that were true so I found no harm in diving into it, but I just don't think one woman can put a "recipe" on Jesus' healing and make it into some sort of formula. I also lived in a yoga ashram once, so I recognized a lot of what I found valuable in that understanding of God quite similar in some ways to CS. I have to say though, CS is truly unique. Well, do you have any thing you'd like to share with me because I am still in a depression and letting go of this feels like another big hole. And I would like to keep the new friends I made, yet not lose my values in the process.

RE: When health becomes an obsession

Rosebud3 — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 19:24:43 GMT

Dear Grace,

I want to thank you so much for being so candid with your concern. You have no idea how much your willingness to share this and the responses from Linda and Do Go have helped me. I am an RN, as I have said before, and I am here to say that I have suffered obsessive anxiety, major depression, PTSD, anorexia, bulemia to name a few. If there is anything I have learned from going through this, it is humility and that God wishes us to love and connect with each other and to be honest as you have been.

The other night I had a major migraine and I called out to God and all I heard was "tell the truth" and so that is what I am here to say. I have seen too much human suffering than I'd care to see forever, but I have also seen God right there with my patients to walk through with them. I am not as good with scripture as Do Good or Linda, but what comes to my mind is when Jesus says to the Father not to take the disciples from the world but He prays for them and for us . He says we will have trials and tribulations in this world but to fear not for he has overcome the world and will be with us until the end of time.

I believe He also says that it is good that He goes to the Father because then the Comforter will come and I believe I remember Him saying that the Comforter is Truth and that the world has not yet been ready to receive Him. When I am afraid, God is loving me, but I can not feel that love until I put Him first, as Do Go and Linda pointed out about putting the Kingdom of Heaven first and all will be added unto us. I can tell you He walks with us from what I have seen in my life and been through. Walking with Jesus Christ is the greatest Truth and Comfort. He also asks us to love God the most and love our neighbor as ourself. I think that sums it up and puts all the rest of that stuff we obsess about into perspective. I pray that I remember this always and once again thank you so very much for bringing that topic up.

RE: When health becomes an obsession

Do_Go_Be_Man — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:31:22 GMT

Grace,

[quote]How do you trust Jesus Christ with your health? ... PLEASE no advice from Christian Scientists saying that I need to get back to Christian Science or atheists saying that I shouldn't be trusting God. That is most definitely NOT my intent in starting this thread. I am seeking to increase my faith in Jesus Christ.[/quote]
As odd as it may seem, I would point you to the same Biblical text now that I would have as a Christian Scientist.

"And he said to his disciples, 'Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat, nor about your body, what you will put on. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they neither sow nor reap, they have neither storehouse nor barn, and yet God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds! And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? If then you are not able to do as small a thing as that, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass, which is alive in the field today, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.'" [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2012:22-31%20;&version=47;]Luke 12:22-31[/url] (English Standard Version)

I also suggest that God provides what we need rather than what we necessarily want.

The Bible refers to lilies in few places. At least according to [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?search=lilies&version1=47&searchtype=all]the search I just did[/url], the only references to lilies (plural form) within the text appear in Song of Solomon and the Gospels. I wasn't there to ask Him, but my guess is that Jesus knew about the connection between Solomon and lilies.

In Song of Solomon, I get the impression that lilies represent a comfortable environment making me think of the phrase, "[url=http://www.answers.com/topic/in-clover]in clover[/url]". I think that Jesus encouraged us to look beyond the lilies to the Creator of the lilies who also created us.

My Presbyterian (USA) uncle once remarked to me when I was a Christian Scientist that he had reached the point in his life where he considered food as nothing more than medicine. Perhaps I've now reached the point where I consider medicine as nothing more than food. There are good foods and bad foods. Foods well prepared and foods that are healthy. Foods that are poorly prepared and foods that are unhealthy. Foods that are delightful in small quantities and hazardous in large. There are foods like puffer fish, gefilte fish, and spam that I choose to avoid no matter how much someone else may enjoy them.

Thus, I look at medicine in a different manner than I did as a Christian Scientist and perhaps differently than many Christians. I can abuse or use anything that God provides. In my abuse, God teaches me. God uses everything He puts before me to bring me in some way closer to Him.

The father of [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%209:14-29%20;&version=47;]the boy with the "unclean spirit"[/url] asked Jesus for compassion, if Jesus could do anything. Jesus replied, "If you can't! All things are possible for one who believes." The Bible says, "Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, 'I believe; help my unbelief!'"

I've lost count of the times that I asked God to help my unbelief and He responded in an unbelievable manner. My imagination is often not grand enough to conceive how God answers my prayers until He does.

Note that Jesus did not tell the father he didn't understand. He didn't suggest to the father to go read the Lesson or have the boy call a practitioner. He didn't tell him to read a certain sentence in a Bible commentary or periodical to help unsee the reality of the seemingly unclean spirit that had never been created.

Jesus took charge. He commanded the unclean spirit to leave the boy and never come back. Later, His disciples asked why they could not cast it out. Jesus said, "This kind cannot be driven out by anything but prayer."

In Christian Science, we prayed prayers of denial; denying the very existence of the "unclean spirits". Jesus never taught anyone at any time that evil was merely an illusion of a universe clouded in mist or that the Bible was some sort of esoteric Ouija board against which we needed to discern His word. He did teach the power of prayer - belief in and reliance on Him for all our needs.

We obviously always want good health through any means we can achieve it. As hard as it is to grasp, however, good health (as least in the short term) may not always be what we need.

The Bible shows us how God used leprosy, blindness, all kinds of diseases, and even death to help the unbelief of those He would have believe. Remember what Jesus said when asked about the sin that made a man blind from birth.

"As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, 'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' Jesus answered, 'It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.'" [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%209;&version=47;]from John 9[/url] (ESV)

This is also one of the examples where Jesus' method of healing included a physical action.

Even in our darkest days, faith the size of a mustard seed or smaller will bring us ultimately closer to God.

Do Go Be Man
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RE: When health becomes an obsession

Linda — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:11:36 GMT

[quote]How do you trust Jesus Christ with your health? I feel silly asking the question, yet it is something deep inside that I struggle with. I can trust him with many other things, but yet I struggle here.[/quote]

I look at the Bible and see that God never guaranteed good health to His people. Paul had his "thorn in the flesh," Timothy had stomach problems, most of the disciples met violent deaths, Stephen was stoned, and so on. These people's relationship with God transcended their health; I can't recall any of them expecting good health in return for their faith. Paul, in fact, speaks of feeling Christ's power through his infirmity:

"To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2 Cor 12:7-10, emphasis added)

My point is that our relationship to God is to be independent of our health. God can keep us healthy if He chooses to, but He often allows illness.

With that said, we are to care for our bodies. Much of our health is a consequence of our actions (for example, too much eating makes us fat, which can then trigger a host of health problems). In many ways, this cause-effect relationship is similar to other cause-effect relationships we encounter in caring for our other belongings. If you don't weed the garden it becomes overrun with weeds; if you don't turn off the outside water in winter you may end up with frozen pipes and a flood. Our belongings require reasonable care, but we shouldn't obsess over any of them. Don't obsess over your garden, but do tend it enough to keep it healthy. Don't obsess over your body, but do tend it enough to keep it healthy.

One thing to remember is that the "health experts" don't always have things right. Modern medicine does many things wonderfully, but it has definite risks. Most medicines have side effects that must be balanced against their benefits; vitamins can be good, but some (K,A,D,and E) can actually become toxic if taken in excess. Exercise is great, but if done improperly it can be harmful. It's great to use medicine, nutrition, and exercise as tools, but it's important to keep a "consumer attitude" about them -- by that I mean, it's important to view them as products and tools and to evaluate them the way you would evaluate other products and tools. That keeps them in their proper place -- as your tools, not your saviors.

When health becomes an obsession

Grace — Sun, 29 Jun 2008 05:20:22 GMT

Hi Everyone,

I'm looking for advice from Christians who have left Christian Science or those who know someone who has. I've been away from Christian Science several years now and believe that I have been able to come to a much better relationship with Jesus Christ. I am, however, still a work in progress, and am struggling with something just now that I think you may be able to help with.

How do you trust Jesus Christ with your health? I feel silly asking the question, yet it is something deep inside that I struggle with. I can trust him with many other things, but yet I struggle here. I used to struggle trusting doctors with my and my loved ones' health, and now I no longer do that.

But now I've gone to the opposite extreme. I seek help through medications, vitamins, and am constantly reading to see how to improve my own and my families' health. I have come to realize that I really do have a problem here and find myself having to admit that it is a sin I need to deal with. It actually interferes with my ability to be close to God. I'm a confessing health-aholic.

My husband had a recent scare in dealing with cancer and it brought me to the point of a panic attack. (Which I must say was not being very supportive of him through his recovery.)

As I'm writing this, I wonder if I've put it under the wrong thread and actually need help through prayer, but I don't know how to change threads at this point.

PLEASE no advice from Christian Scientists saying that I need to get back to Christian Science or atheists saying that I shouldn't be trusting God. That is most definitely NOT my intent in starting this thread. I am seeking to increase my faith in Jesus Christ.

Grace