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RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

Phoenix Rising — Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:38:17 GMT

I feel compelled to respond to the poster's question. I married a Christian Scientist when I was 20. I had been brought up as a Lutheran...the kind who only go to church a few times a year...so not very churchy. My mother was not happy that I would be marrying into this religion though she adored my future husband so the objections were not pushed too hard. I would not have listened anyway. When you are in love you are in love and you arent thinking about what might happen way down the line. Also, I didnt know then what I know now. It was a big mistake for me. Because I grew up without a father, and had a stepfather who clearly favored my 1/2 sister, I needed a man who made me feel important to him. I didnt get that and it was because of Christian Science and the huge roll it played in my husbands life.

My husbands parents were radical reliance, very very staunch CSers. So let me tell you what this meant...over time...for me.

*If someone in my husbands family got sick, got poison ivy, had some kind of a problem...everyone knew about it but ME. No one was allowed to tell ME about it. I had joined TMC too...but I was not worthy to be in the know. When you have some kind of a problem ...in CS it has to be a secret. Funny though that everyone else in the family was allowed to be in on the secret but not me. See If *I* knew my thoughts would be an evil force. This is true...Im serious.

*Grace is exactly right in everything she said....read her post again.

*MY CS spouse would call his mother the practitioner for headaches, behavior problems with our children (things he should have talked to his wife about), situations at work, whatever. Over time it became a shutting out of me as a wife and helpmate. I was NO helpmate to my husband. MBE and his mother were his helpmates.

*My husband has not had sex with me for 20 years. And oh yeah...I HAVE asked him to touch me, hold my hand, hug me, kiss me, make love to me, repeatedly...but nothing. Before I finally kicked him out of the house I asked him if it was CS...and he said.."I work daily against sin, disease, and physical sensation." So see how they think of sex? While they all might not think this way...lots do. There are plenty of posts here that reflect this same problem. It didnt start out this way between us...but clearly it was in his thought to become more spiritual. I sure didnt get what I thought I had married.

*Your spouse might get some debilitating illness that she will suffer with for decades because she chooses not to go to a doctor for a simple fix. Are you willing to deal with that situation? This happened to me.

*What about children and medical care? A Christian Science parent is likely to deny symptoms. A Christian Science parent will scold a child for crying when they get hurt....because the pain isnt real.

*Then you have to consider way down the line when you both approach old age and the health problems start. Will you spouse refuse medical care? and can you stand to watch her die before your eyes because she wont go to a doctor. Please take time to consider what that is like and how you will feel...because it might happen. It happend to me.

*I was always an outsider to my in-laws...always outside the inner circle of those in the true light. I was always told about what I should "KNOW" and what things I should pray against....the terrible evils that would befall my children if I didnt pray against them. CSers are very proud of their complicated intellectualized religion and have a way of showing their superiority in their voices, demeanor and actions. So get ready as you are definately below the salt.

This isnt all CSers who act this way...but its not rare either. Find out if this person practices radical reliance and if so you have some serious thinking to do. It is a religion that I consider a cult...because people DIE and suffer needlessly. Please consider the word DIE as it might affect you and those you love if you bring Christian Science into your life.

SQUARE PEG

RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

Do_Go_Be_Man — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 12:37:59 GMT

Grace,

[quote]I was raised in a home where both parents were Christian Scientists and witnessed first hand how spouses can abuse one another and mistreat one another while claiming that they are only doing what they have learned in Christian Science.[/quote]
I am very sorry that you suffered as a child through the false witness of your parents. Abuse and mistreatment have no place in any marriage and should not be tolerated by anyone.

The Bible does not teach us to merely rollover and accept abuse. Properly understood, even Jesus' seemingly pacifistic command to "turn the other cheek" represents strength, not weakness and acceptance of abuse.

Divorce, like marriage, in our modern culture is taken entirely too lightly without considering the personal, emotional, and spiritual costs. Satan loves divorce. While sometimes even Christians divorce, it should only be considered in context, in deep prayer, and in counsel with those who have legal, spiritual, and psychological expertise to offer.

Had I been counseling our anonymous brother before his marriage, I would have cautioned him regarding the actual and cultural teachings of CS. I would have counseled his wife regarding the Christian perspective of marriage. Were I a clergyman empowered to perform the ceremony, I don't know that I would have done so.

Our brother and his wife are now married. Jesus taught, "What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." (Matt. 19:6) I could write about all the ills of CS as it related to my own first marriage and my mother's marriages, but that would not, by my perspective, be in line with what Jesus taught. Perhaps the day is coming when that marriage will be dissolved. Perhaps God has something else in His plan.

Jesus provided only one reason for divorce, "...whoever divorces his wife, [u]except for sexual immorality[/u], and marries another, commits adultery." (Matt. 19:9) Does the wife's unilateral abstenance represent immorality? 1 Cor. 7:3-5 [u]may[/u] teach that:

[i]The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.[/i]

Were I able and invited to do so, I would be interested in the wife's perspective on what Scripture teaches regarding marital relations. She has likely never considered the Scriptural context.

MBE's chapter on Marriage is about the only of her works in which I see consistent glimmers of truth. That does not mean that I consider it a wholly (and certainly not Holy) reference on the spiritual and physical nature of marriage. Our brother's wife does, however, probably consider it such. To that extent, he should be aware of what it says. The flip side of that is that the wife should be aware of what he believes. He may, however, not be aware of what the Bible actually teaches about marital relations. From his postings, we don't know a lot about his circumstances.

God brought the two of them together. I cannot speak further to His intentions without unproductive speculation. In your plant in the darkness analogy, the possibility exists for the plant to be brought into the light and watered. At some point in time, the two of them had feelings for each other they chose to express in marriage. Perhaps God is working in their lives to bring them both into light and bring them water that they may never again thirst.

Do Go Be Man
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RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

Do_Go_Be_Man — Sat, 26 Jan 2008 09:49:20 GMT

Anonymous January 26, 2008 @ 10:16:10 AM,

[quote]I am a Southern baptist who married a christian Scientest. I would like to let you know we have been married less than a year and are on theebrink of divorce. We have had seperate beds starting on the honeymoon. I woke up to find her sleeping in the car. She says that cs belive that sex between married couples is a sin and that cs are taught to live with out it. She is also very dominering and ioffers no sympathy when you are in pain of any kind. I waas helping move some things around and tripped and fell face first to the ground and had some bruises and cuts, her reply was get up you fell in gods hands you are ok. I would not recommend that a true christian marry a cs.[/quote]
Welcome to the forums. Sorry for your marital difficulties. Your story represents a really good reason why couples should have pre-marital counseling and explore each others beliefs before marriage. It also represents the cultural aberrations within CS. Brother, as harsh as I may sound, however, you need to consider your Christian obligations and work to preserve your marriage.

[i]...God has called you to peace... how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?"[/i] 1 Cor. 7:15

I wish we could meet face-to-face and pray together. Your circumstances are so familiar.

[i]No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.[/i] 1 Cor. 10:13

CS does not teach that sex between married couples is a sin anymore than Paul taught it. [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=7&version=47&context=chapter]1 Corinthians 7[/url] has a lot to offer regarding the principles of marriage that are often misinterpreted by CSists and others. In typical CS cherry-picking, your wife may be reading or been taught 1 Cor. 7:2 ( from : ), 1 Cor. 7:7 ( to first . ):

[i]"It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman. I wish that all were as I myself am."[/i]

My CS practitioner, ex-mother-in-law taught this to my ex-wife resulting in a great deal of confusion. She also unilaterally decided to apply that to her own marriage. Of course, the context changes the meaning and portrays an entirely different picture of a Christian marriage. Even MBE did not teach abstinence, she did write:

[i]"Chastity is the cement of civilization and progress. Without it there is no stability in society, and without it one cannot attain the Science of Life."[/i] S&H 57:1-3

Chastity and celibacy are not synonyms. Though sometimes confused with celibacy, chastity's primary definition addresses [i]"[u]unlawful[/u] sexual intercourse"[/i]. Celibacy's primary definition addresses [i]"the state of not being married"[/i]. MBE was married and clearly expected other CSists to marry.

In my pre-believer, CS days, I turned to resources regarding sex such as "The Joy of Sex". Such works present a distorted, often anti-spiritual perspective of sex. Sex is a creation of God and does have spiritual purpose. The two books I now recommend are:

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Genesis-Sex-Sexual-Relationships-First/dp/0875525199/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201365508&sr=8-1]The Genesis of Sex: Sexual Relationships in the First Book of the Bible by O. Palmer Robertson[/url]
[url=http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Sex-Guide-Sexual-Fulfillment/dp/0849944155/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1201365564&sr=1-1]The Gift of Sex: A Guide to Sexual Fulfillment by Clifford L. and Joyce J. Penner[/url]

BTW, the current lead topic on Spirtuality.com (an official CS web site) is [url=http://www.spirituality.com/feature/marriage/index.jhtml;jsessionid=GNEBNGXMX1V35KGL4LYCFEQ?WT.mc_id=homepage_promobanner]Marriage[/url]. I haven't read any other articles and they may well be corrupted by the cultural teachings rather than true CS.

Have you read the chapter on [url=http://www.spirituality.com/dt/book_lookup.jhtml?reference=SH%2B56&marks=false&baseURL=/dt/book_lookup.jhtml]Marriage[/url] in S&H? Doing so is the absolute bare minimum anyone marrying a CSist should do. Reading S&H and attending CS services for a time should also be considered. You shouldn't agree with what you learn (unless you also find the rare Biblical basis), but you need to know what you're dealing with.

[i]"Matrimony should never be entered into without a full recognition of its enduring obligations on both sides. There should be the most tender solicitude for each other's happiness, and mutual attention and approbation should wait on all the years of married life."[/i] S&H 59:1-6

I find a rare concurrence between Bibilical and CS teachings in the following passages:

[i]"To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does,O) she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife. To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her. If any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he consents to live with her, she should not divorce him. "[/i] 1 Cor. 7:10-13

[i]"After marriage, it is too late to grumble over incompatibility of disposition. A mutual understanding should exist before this union and continue ever after, for deception is fatal to happiness."[/i] S&H 59:23-26

[i]"Husbands and wives should never separate if there is no Christian demand for it. It is better to await the logic of events than for a wife precipitately to leave her husband or for a husband to leave his wife. If one is better than the other, as must always be the case, the other pre-eminently needs good company."[/i] S&H 66:21-27

May the LORD bless you, your wife, and your marriage.

Do Go Be Man
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RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

Linda — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 21:10:26 GMT

I do need to point out what is probably obvious -- that the challenges in a mixed marriage will depend on the personalities involved as well as the religious beliefs. Not all CSists practice "radical reliance" on CS, and many do not rely heavily on practitioners and so are not greatly influenced by them. Some do seek medical care upon occasion. But as there is great potential for difficulty and heartache in a mixed CS non-CS marriage, I agree that it's important for you to learn all you can about "what makes CSists tick" before marrying one.

RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

thinkerforChrist — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:05:30 GMT

BT,

I would be important for you to know that while CSs use practioners for physical healing, they use them for counseling as well. In my experience growing up in CS I observed practioners give advice on marriage, finances, depression, anxiety, lost items, etc. They are often the only source of 'help' that a CS will ever seek out.

RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

Linda — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 15:22:05 GMT

Sad points, but true in many cases, Gentle Dove. I'll provide links for the thread and book:

Thread: [url=http://www.christianway.org/forums/Topic9683-15-1.aspx]Cult Like Behvior With Teachers and Practitioners[/url]

Book: [url=http://www.amazon.com/Religion-That-Kills-Christian-Science/dp/1563841711/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199916163&sr=1-1]The Religion that Kills[/url]

[quote]There is also a high number of divorces in this religion. Their "leader" had multiple marriages. [/quote]

This is true, but I want to clarify that Eddy's mulitple marriages were not "because" of CS. Her first husband died and her second marriage ended in divorce before she started CS. Eddy's third husband, Asa Eddy, was her only husband while she was a CSist. He died of heart problems (she declared that he was mentally poisoned) while in CS.

RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

Gentle Dove — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:16:06 GMT

To better prepare yourself for what you may be getting in for, read Christian Science, The Religion that Kills by Linda Kramer. You will also need to learn an entire new language....animal magnatism, mortal mind, and words from the Bible will also get a new meaning. Adam is not the guy in the fig leaf, but "A DAMN" as in beaver built it.... Fear isn't what you feel when you step on a snake but "False Evidence Appearing Real". Oh, and you won't be real anymore, you will be an illusion and anything that hurts will only be an illusion too. Anytime your intended spouse disagrees with you it will be because your are an "agressive mental suggestion". Its a whole new trip down the rabbit hole with this group!

RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

Gentle Dove — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:07:14 GMT

It is under General Discussion Not Related to Doctrine.

RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

Do_Go_Be_Man — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:04:21 GMT

BT,

Welcome to the forums.

Wish I had more time today to respond to your questions. Religion is a core value that when mixed in marriage can lead to troubles. You are wise to consider the issue now rather than later.

We've had a number of discussions over the years on this topic. As a Christian and former CSist, I counsel you to learn as much as you can about CS and not necessarily just those aspects that obviously conflict with Scriptural teachings. In addition to the formal teachings of CS, there are considerable cultural aspects as well.

In my own case when I was a CSist, I dated a Christian woman who knew she opposed CS though could not articulate why in her own words or adequately explain her own beliefs. I attempted to learn what I could about her beliefs in spite of her own inability to discuss them. When I left CS, I joined a church of her denomination though later discovered they too had strayed from Biblical teachings.

Do Go Be Man
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RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

Gentle Dove — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 12:03:36 GMT

Check out the thread titled Cult-Like Behavior in Practitioners and Teachers.

RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

BT — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 11:03:53 GMT

Thanks for the feedback. I recognize very clearly the issues concerning children in CS. Can you elaborate on the statement "their practitioner who, be prepared, will play a big part in your private lives." I realize practitioners are used for healing, but in what ways could they play a part in a marriage?

RE: CS and non-CS Marriages

Gentle Dove — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 10:55:37 GMT

Make SURE you have an understanding about healthcare for your potential children. There have been many sad cases of children suffering and dying under this religion. Also, can you prepare yourself to watch your potential mate refuse medical care? It is terribly tragic to watch loved ones suffer when they are ill and they won't seek help, other than from their practitioner who, be prepared, will play a big part in your private lives. I have had to watch several family members suffer and watch one even die while refusing to consent to medical care. There is also a high number of divorces in this religion. Their "leader" had multiple marriages. It would also depend on what religion you are and how devout you are in your own faith.

CS and non-CS Marriages

BT — Wed, 09 Jan 2008 10:14:49 GMT

I am currently seeing a CS and wondering what our chances are for having a successful marriage someday. Of course, the success will depend on us, but just looking for shared experiences here. I will not become a CS (which will obviously be the main hurdle). It is a wonder we are even together based on our religious differences, but we are very happy together and have many other important things in common.