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RE: Married to a CSist and need help

Linda — Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:13:59 GMT

Very funny, Anonymous. Actually, "chemicalization" is a very dangerous concept in CS. If I may borrow from page 139 of my book:

"Believers are taught not to worry if their symptoms seem to worsen during Christian Science treatment or while reading Science and Health. They are taught that the emotional or physical discomfort is often caused by what Mrs. Eddy calls “chemicalization.” Chemicalization is “the process which mortal mind and body undergo in the change of belief from a material to a spiritual basis.” Mrs. Eddy compares it to an alkali destroying an acid and even suggests that the aggravation of certain symptoms is a sign of spiritual progress.10 Chemicalization is an extremely dangerous concept since it can suggest that a patient is improving when the disease is actually getting worse."

RE: Married to a CSist and need help

all in one — Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:13:33 GMT

Gentle Dove,
yes! That's just it. I remember too the passage about 'the louder truth raises its voice the louder error screams until its
inarticulate voice is forever silenced in oblivion.'

RE: Married to a CSist and need help

all in one — Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:10:52 GMT

I would have to agree with you there. I'm sure she had nothing but pure intentions.
On the other hand, it is possible for followers (of MBE and of any doctrine for that matter)
to be sincere. And to be sincerely wrong.

RE: Married to a CSist and need help

Gentle Dove — Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:07:13 GMT

One reason so many end up dying may be because of their belief that things will get worse right before they are healed. I was taught that "error screams loudest....." I was told it was called chemicalization. I remember being told this as a child during the most excruciating pain. Then my ear drum burst. THAT was supposed to be a healing. So my point is, if they believe that, at the most dire points, they think their healing is right around the corner and end up dead or maimed. Has anyone else heard of "chemicalization'?

RE: Married to a CSist and need help

tmcl — Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:40:10 GMT

all in one,

While I certainly agree that people have misinterpreted passages in Mrs. Eddy's writings, I still maintain that nowhere in her writings, if they are examined objectively and in context, can one find her saying it is better to die if one is not healed through Christian Science. And not only did she never say it, I also am convinced she did not believe it.

RE: Married to a CSist and need help

all in one — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:20:38 GMT

TMCL,
I know that this statement comes from the chapter on marriage. But don't you see how it might be open to misinterpretation,
and how some people might think they are doing exactly what they should do, by holding on til the bitter end? This statement
has surely been taken out of context many times, especially since citations are assembled out of context in the Weekly
lesson sermons and on Wednesday evenings. Perhaps Mrs. Eddy didn't mean to suggest one should pray on even if death
comes before healing. But she also says 'either here or hereafter suffering or Science must destroy all illusions regarding life
and mind, and regenerate material sense and self.' Some may think they are losing a 'false sense' of life when they die before
they are healed.

RE: Married to a CSist and need help

followingHim — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 19:53:03 GMT

Well, TMCL, I venture that Eddy would apply her metaphor to matters of distress other than marriage, as well. We Fundamentalists want to be alert to the application of texts' larger principles.

That said, I'd like to take this metaphor to an honors class in composition and see what they make of it!

Whew!

RE: Married to a CSist and need help

tmcl — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:22:44 GMT

all in one,

The passage you quote is about marriage, not physical healing! In fact, there is no statement by Mrs. Eddy anywhere that says it is better to die if you are not healed in Christian Science.

RE: Married to a CSist and need help

all in one — Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:49:58 GMT

I think it's a question of interpretation, or perhaps misinterpretation.

One quote that comes to mind is where she says in Science and Health " When the ocean is stirred by a storm, then the clouds lower, the wind shrieks through the tightening shrouds, and the waves lift themselves into mountains. We ask the helmsman: ' Do you know your course? Can you steer safely amid the storm?' He answers bravely, but even the dauntless seaman is not sure of his safety; nautical science is not equal to the Science of Mind. Yet, acting up to his highest understanding, firm at the post of duty, the mariner works on and awaits the issue. Thus should we deport ourselves on the seething ocean of sorrow. Hoping and working, one should [b]stick fast to the wreck, until an irresistible propulsion precipitates his doom[b] or sunshine gladdens the troubled sea."

Some people hold tight to the wreckage, waiting for the sunshine that never comes. Sometimes the irresistible propulsion which precipitates his doom, is death.

Anonymous — Fri, 25 Aug 2006 00:25:35 GMT

Maybe she's praying too. . . .
rude comment removed by Moderator.

Anonymous — Fri, 10 Feb 2006 00:34:28 GMT

Dear Friend,

Yes, I know Christian Science and know that your husband does not accept the concept of original sin. Yet each of us needs to work out our own salvation.

In Galations the Bible says

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

At times our salvation takes humility. The humility to set aside arguings that says "I'm right and you are wrong". That humilty that is willing to turn it all over to God and trust God's ability to work in your husband is evidence of our faith in God's power. Our job is to walk in the Spirit. As your love and joy and goodness shine, your husband will want what you have.

Mary

Confused Wife — Mon, 23 Jan 2006 15:03:58 GMT

Mary I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying I should do. I have discussed many issues with my husband. And if you are a former CS then you know the difficulties a loved one faces in trying to point out the truth of the bible that God sent his Son Jesus to earth to die for our sins that we might be saved and be given a chance to share in his everlasting kingdom. You seem to tell "friend" that the bible holds the answer for him and that he obviously loves his wife but then I feel that for some reason as the wife you think I should be following my husband's lead (into CS?) because he is the man rather than leading him down the path towards salvation. Perhaps you could explain you post a bit more.

Confused Wife

Anonymous — Sat, 07 Jan 2006 16:37:33 GMT

Well, I would love to see more examples of how Jesus' teaching help us through these difficult decisions. The old, What would Jesus do? I am convinced that the Bible offers guidance. For example the golden rule. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." For the confused wife, How would you feel if your husband was on line with other Christian Scientists and saying "I can't understand my wife, she seems so totally misled."

I'm convinced that the Golden Rule was written to help us be better Christians. To help us grow in Christ. Commit yourself to Jesus' teachings and you can't go wrong. You can only learn to love more.

"Love the lord thy God with all they heart, with all thy strength and with all thy mind, and your neighbor (husband) as thy self.

Mary

Anonymous — Sat, 07 Jan 2006 16:18:44 GMT

Dear Friend,

My heart goes out to you. You obviously love your wife very much. And like for everything, the Bible holds the answers for you. Your situation is not unique. It is in your ability to love, to strive to love as Jesus loved, that your wife will open her eyes and see the beautiful and pure Christianity that you have to offer.

As always, we are constantly being asked to walk the walk we profess.

Mary

Linda — Sat, 07 Jan 2006 13:30:52 GMT

I have an aunt and no one knows if she is alive or dead--that's how estranged people in my family can be.

That's REALLY sad. What a waste.

Broncho — Sat, 07 Jan 2006 11:30:15 GMT

Dear Spring,
We are told not to interfere in other people's lives and also told to tell people about the Good News in Christ. I know no matter what I do, I will lose my brother--to CS if he dies early, to being offensive to his CS ideas if he lives and I tell him CS is not working for him. This is not a family that forgives much of anything; everything I learned about forgiveness I learned from my husband or my church. I have an aunt and no one knows if she is alive or dead--that's how estranged people in my family can be. I get scared of that.

Broncho

Spring — Sat, 07 Jan 2006 05:49:04 GMT

Hi Broncho,

Hm, got my problems with letting grown-ups die in CS if they want to. Because they don't die because they made a conscious decision that they want to die but, from their understanding, do their very best to get a healing. And do it the CS way because that's what their having been brainwashed teaches them is the best possible, or even the only way.

It's just difficult to tell people who are intelligent and generally reasonable, what to do, to make them understand the big lie which they are living with.

Marion

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 18:17:31 GMT

Well, folks, I am back on after a long hiatus. I am increasingly worried about my CS-ish brother. He recently lost a kidney because he had the largest tumor on record (at his local hospital) removed and it mangled his kidney. At one point, he said that God wasn't paying attention to him. I wanted to say to him, try another way--but I was too chicken. We don't get along very well, and I liked getting along not very well so much better than not getting along at all. I just know that his tumor got so large because he probably was "denying it."
He has had nothing but the life of Job for the last three years and he still clings to some of his CS ideas. It drives me nuts, and I know that it will kill him.
Before on this forum, I thought grownups should be allowed to kill themselves with CS if they wanted, but now I am not so sure. Is there anything that can be done?
Broncho

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 12:37:01 GMT

This is an honest and forthright response, TMCL, and I appreciate it. (Particularly in regard to the citations I requested).

Although I no longer accept CS, as you know, it is the "God Will Guide you" principle regarding when to push aside the practitioners, etc. that I would really struggle with if I was still in it. (Particularly since God in CS is not the personal God that he is in Christianity.You have to seek, in effect the personal help of a principle, instead of "Abba" {or literally Daddy} that the Bible as it is written says we can call upon). As evident from some of the recent posts about CS relatives who have died needlessly, the culture and TMC are going to have to change radically, and then this change is going to have to be accepted in the pews before many instances of this cease. Time will tell in the meantime.

As for CS Healings being as effective or in some cases more effective than medical ones, you are certainly entitled to this opinion, based on personal experience and other sources. We both know, however, that TMC publishes only selected testimonies of healing. No data has ever been published by the church or other sources on success vs. failure in CS healings. The opposite is true in the medical community, where the results of every surgery, etc. in hospitals are tabulated and monitored by the Joint Commission on Hospital Accredidation. So, we can rely on subjective, anecdoctal, and very incomplete data when it comes to CS, or hard, objective, empirical data in the medical field.

Along with accepting my Baptism and Jesus Christ as my personal savior years ago, I have opted for the latter.

Thanks again for your ongoing contributions to this forum.

John

tmcl — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 11:46:14 GMT

John,

Your post contains several issues, some of which I've commented on in past posts. But let me offer here a brief reply.

As to when one should turn to medical treatment, my only answer is to quote Mrs. Eddy's words, "God will guide you ... ."

I don't agree that Christian Science healing is inherently more dangerous than medical healing, when practiced correctly. I can't begin to tell you what a boon Christian Science has been to me in terms of my personal health. Being raised in a very medically minded family, and being frequently sick while growing up, let's just say that the contrast between then and after my becoming a Christian Scientist is very striking. I have also seen relatives die horrible deaths under medical care when I have felt that they could have been healed through Christian Science.

As for the "instances" you ask me to cite, none come to mind.

tmcl

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 08:58:49 GMT

"Confused Wife,

I wonder if your husband would benefit from reading Stephen Gottschalk's new biography of Mrs. Eddy. On pages 304 -305 he writes: "Eddy did not believe in papering over or ignoring physical problems that needed attention, either in her own case or that of her staff. ... When Eddy had a physical difficulty she was specific and upfront about her need. 'I am always frank, or mean to be,' she wrote in a letter in 1903, 'and do not hide the worst side of a subject.'" tmcl"

Forgive me, TMCL, but to draw an analogy, your postings are beginning to sound like the campaign the tobacco industry is waging right now to convince minors of the evils of smoking and how they shouldn' t do it, etc. At the same time, they advertise their products in the hopes that folks will not only select their brands, but take up smoking !!! (at, e.g., the mature age of 21 vs. the immature age of 17. Ha!!!)

In the end, they try to discourage smoking but promote it at the same time. If they don't promote it, their companies and industry will die. They push both inherently contradictory campaigns at once for PR purposes (and seem to get away with it in some circles).

It should be the same with CS as MBE originally saw it , if I get the gist of your posts (despite "CS Culture" and the traditions of TMC). Namely, the CS view of the world is true and the only truth, but if CS healing is not working, CS members should not be ashamed or afraid to seek medical help. But if CS folks don't ultimately try healings, consult practitioners, and take the risks to their health and even their lives, you don't have CS!!! By reading S&H, no one could come to any other logical conclusion than that is what MBE expects, or you don't have CS.

Even in the "neo" CS movement, just how do those in these branch churches know when to draw the line when it comes to something like a chest pain. Do they "know the truth" and/or call a practitioner, or go to an ER or call 911? I would imagine that even the most "liberal" thinking CS member will be confronted by this sooner or later in their life (either on the part of themselves or a loved one, be it a child, parent, etc.) Do you deny that S&H is full of examples of how folks should apply CS, and if they don't they lack proper understanding for which they are personally responsible? Theirin is the dilemma that both hard core CS traditionalists and Neo CS folks must confront themselves with(and every opportunity for tragic results if they miscalculate).

Let's get down to the nuts and bolts here. Can you cite me one instance in S&H or MBE's other writings, etc., where it is stated, or strongly implied, that it would be OK for a CS adherent to be treated by both a practitioner and medical doctor in the same room at the same time using both methods (and I mean both)? Can you cite me one instance in the NT as it is written that states you cannot use spiritual and physical means to heal at the same time? Can you cite me one instance where it says that both spiritual and physical healing together is incompatible?

I know of at least one verse where it says it is completely compatible ("Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord." -James 5:14").

Anyway, thank you for letting me share my thoughts.

John

tmcl — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 07:10:10 GMT

Surfer,

Thanks for the New Year's greeting. Happy New Year to you as well!

tmcl

surferforjesus — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:31:49 GMT

I think the CS folks call it the "unreality" of reality.... What is real in CS is not real for TMCL because you need to deny human reality.... wow how confusing for mere mortals

Anonymous — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:11:29 GMT

To me, the "blind eye" is the biggest problem I face. When my husband can no longer deal with life... the blind eye comes out. It's so unreasonable and unfair. You can't discuss, you can't reason with it. It's just there and has made a universal decision not to see!

Confused, you are right not to put down CS to your husband. I did that early on and it set up defenses that haven' t come down since. It's horrible. I stupidly thought we could talk about it but you really can't. It always puts them on the defensive- not good for a friendship, it's nearly a fatal move in a marriage.

The thing I can't understand is how tmcl always has a defense that is so opposite of everything most people have experienced here. Someone isn't experiencing correctly! ) Or maybe the eyes are truly blind.

Sapin

surferforjesus — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:55:48 GMT

TMCL

Happy New Year....

Tthere you go again defending Eddy... she said a lot of things and confused a lot of generations of followers and the Boards of Directors has allowed this pervasive anti-medical treatment culture that has led to the unnecessary s of a lot of her "so-called" followers and loved ones of many people who look for solace in this site.

You know this is true and you also know that my friend Confused Wife's suffering comes from the fact that her husband ( as my wife) is caught up in the confusion... should I see a doctor should I not?????

Why should there ever ever be any question at all about the use of medical help and prayer always simultaneously? They are both gifts of the grace of God through our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. Your church is doing harm to its flock and you all know it.

My wife's CS group here in SoCal recently lost 2 members in their early 50s who seemed totally healthy... one day they just died? No explanation, no ? Where is the medical malpractice lawsuits against their practioners... or the detectives investigating why they were not given proper medical care?

This stuff happens all the time all over the US and other countries in CS communities and you and the rest of the "true believers" turn a blind eye. You will never see any write ups about these "failures" in the CS literature... no everything is just so PERFECT!

Give me a break!

Surferforjesus

tmcl — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:43:15 GMT

Confused Wife,

It's sad. I wish all CS parents would respect and support the right of their children to make their own decisions about treatment for illness, and also that all CS parents would pay attention to what Mrs. Eddy has written about the right use of temporary means in those cases where healing through spiritual means is not taking place.

tmcl

Anonymous — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:09:47 GMT

tmlc while I can on one level appreciate your suggestion it will never happen for a variety of reasons. While his parents are still very CS he has come out of it on one level. When he couldn't catch his breath and it only got worse a couple of years ago he went on his own to the emergency room where he was getting less than 50% oxygen in his system and was diagnosised with asthma. Religion is something we don't talk about much which makes me sad which is why I find this forum helpful. Knowing that there is a chance he will abadon CS completely by reading the bible on his own and coming to his own understanding as others here on the forum have gives me great hope. I love my husband dearly and tell him how much I worry when he goes to visit his family without me and tells me he is having trouble breathing because I don't know that he would have the fortitude to take himself to a hospital when at his family's home. So I pray a lot during those times.

Confused wife.

tmcl — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 09:50:20 GMT

Confused Wife wrote:

I used to think that he was very private and unsure about opening up with me because of his mother. It was his mother but I think even more it was the church in which he was raised. Don't talk about troubles, things that bother you, etc.

Confused Wife,

I wonder if your husband would benefit from reading Stephen Gottschalk's new biography of Mrs. Eddy. On pages 304 -305 he writes: "Eddy did not believe in papering over or ignoring physical problems that needed attention, either in her own case or that of her staff. ... When Eddy had a physical difficulty she was specific and upfront about her need. 'I am always frank, or mean to be,' she wrote in a letter in 1903, 'and do not hide the worst side of a subject.'"

tmcl

Anonymous — Tue, 03 Jan 2006 18:13:05 GMT

Barb I would love to hear more. I've actually never put CS down to my husband. I think I've only asked him once to put S&H aside and read the bible. It was only this past Easter that I refused to attend CS service with he and his parents, and allowed them to take the children. I'm still struggling with much due to his being raised CS. I used to think that he was very private and unsure about opening up with me because of his mother. It was his mother but I think even more it was the church in which he was raised. Don't talk about troubles, things that bother you, etc. While I on the other hand state what is bothering me, get it out in the open, talk, hash, even argue and then move on. I still can't always deal with his reseved side and need to have the "perfect words" before saying anything but it gets better.

Confused wife

Barb — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 11:51:47 GMT

Dear Confused Wife,

I can really relate to your post. I was once that defensive CSist whose spouse was telling me to please put away S&H and focus on the Bible for a while. I must say that it was all in the way my husband said it that mattered. I only did as he suggested whe he spoke gently about it and then left it alone for a long time. It was more the fact that he was quiet about it (once he learned that preaching and putting down CS was counterproductive, making me even more defensive). I guess that's true even of our teenagers when we want them to do a chore.... we have to mention it once, then leave it alone, or they'll resist! : )

I'll write more later cause I have to get back to class. (Supply teaching at the moment!)

Spring — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 01:26:27 GMT

Confused Wife,

Will definitely keep you in my prayers!

I feel with you how torn and helpless you must feel sometimes. My immediate thought was: the only change can come through prayer. God knows how to reach your husband, through you, anyone else, something he reads, hears, or just some doubts he gets about CS. Somehow, he must "catch" the seed of at least a very faint doubt in CS, before he has that, he may approach whatever he hears that is contradictory to S&H with a defensive attitude. Although, I admit, trying to prove CS to be right, he may just as well come to understand it isn't.

Wish you a blessed Christmas!

Marion

Confused Wife — Wed, 21 Dec 2005 14:34:57 GMT

Well, things had been going well for quite some time. I felt that even though he was going to the CS church more often recently that a friend pointed out that he was probably doing that because the discussions that we had been having (that I thought he was really thinking about) were making him nervous. She likened it to how would I feel if someone came to me and said "They found the bones of Jesus and that he really died, was buried but never rose from the dead." WOW, that would kind of freak me out. And so maybe he is going through the same thing and so I need to tread more lightly and ask the Spirit to continue to direct me and fill me with the right words. The other night I did not have the right words and pushed a little too far. I asked him to just put S&H aside for a time and read ONLY the bible starting with any of the gospels. He wasn't pleased and I found his S&H opened and underlined the next day. The cited part was "Christianity as Jesus taught it was not a creed, nor a system of ceremonies, nor a special gift froma ritualistic Jehovah, but it was the demonstration of divine Love casing out error and healing the sick, not merely in the name of Christ, or Turth, but in demonstration of Truth, as must be the case in the cycles of divine light." (p. 135 for those interested in the context.) HUH?!

I start out getting the point of that quote but by the end I'm confused by it all. So if I could come up with some discussion about this quote I would talk with him about it and why I would like him to turn to the bible instead of S&H but I don't even know where to start.

I ended the tense discussion by just stating the obvious--at this time of year I realize how different our beliefs are about Christmas and the Christ child and it makes me sad. I really want and need my kids to believe in Jesus as God. When my son came home from CS Sunday school a couple of weeks ago and told me I was a bad Mom because I said Jesus was God and that isn't what his Sunday School teacher told him I KNEW I needed to double up my efforts. My son is very bright and the last thing I want is for him to get, well I guess I'll call it what it is, brainwashed. Please keep us in your prayers.

Do_Go_Be_Man — Mon, 10 Oct 2005 21:14:08 GMT

Confused Wife,

Many Christians get confused by the Trinity and CS denies it as you have found out. God is in seven synonyms to them rather than three persons as in the Bible.

As CS is selective in what parts of the Bible to study and accept, CSists are frequently quite ignorant of what it actually says though believe themselves to be excellent Bible scholars. They will also point with pride to examples such as the current TMC Board Chair having done her doctoral dissertation on the Bible.

I've been taking a Sunday School class based on Evangelism Explosion which keeps things very basic. The essential questions EE asks are:

1. Do you know for sure that you are going to be with God in Heaven?

2. If God were to ask you, "Why should I let you into My Heaven?" what would you say?

The link I made for "essential questions ..." above goes to a web site with a good Gospel presentation including Bible verses. If he's open to it, you might consider using that presentation and those verses as a jumping off point for discussion. Watch it by yourself so you will know what you might get into. The Holy Spirit, however, determines if he's truly ready for God's gift of Grace.

Another option is to check out the CS Lesson-Sermon and ask him about some of the Bible verses included. It's not too hard to stack the deck by finding examples that deviate from the true meaning by taking verses out of context. Most Lesson-Sermons include many citations directing to only read to the first comma, semi-colon, etc.

Do Go Be Man
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Confused Wife — Mon, 10 Oct 2005 20:21:27 GMT

Broncho thanks but no thanks for the suggestion about reading S & H. I've read enough of it to give me a migraine more than once. And I don't think logic will work when it comes to my husband because it is such a family/emotional thing.
The in-laws show up this week so I could use some prayers next Sunday. I know that my husband will want to take the kids to church with his parents but since my church starts one hour before and the kids are signed up for Sunday school which I also help teach it could be make for an intersting morning.

I did have an interesting possible foot in the door discussion a week or so ago with DH (dear husband.) I'm taking a bible study class and this year we are studying Genesis. When I got to Gen.1:26 which I've always taken to be the backbone of CS I read it to my husband "Then God said, "Let US make man in OUR image, according to OUR likeness;" well you know the rest. He said, that isn't in my version. So I go get the old King James (which we have talked about as well..."don't you think that the people doing bible study and translations today could probably do a more accurage job than those guys back in the 1600's?") And sure enough the words were there US, OUR, OUR. It is just a beginning but it got us talking about how every Christian that I know of believes in the three persons of God: Father, who created the world, Son, sent by the Father to save us from our sins, and the Holy Spirit who came after the Son to fill us and help us, etc. He actually seemed to listen and think about it. This was a HUGE step for us. We usually just politely stay away from "God talk" which has always made me sad. So I told him "Thank you" for the conversation before we went to bed.

But it just makes me wonder, especially after reading so much on this website what he has going on that I don't know and can't fathom. I mean how can you read ANY of the New Testament and NOT believe Jesus came to redeem us for our sinfullness?!

So I bring this back to the top just to give a bit of an update and if anyone has any other thoughts on how to deal with such a delicate situation. I'm bound and determined at this point to raise our children as true Christians. I have so many questions about his thoughts and beliefs but I hesitate to raise them her for you all to explain lest I bring up too many old wounds or struggles. I mean why glasses and braces, and food at all, but no vitamins, doctors, casts for broken bones. And counseling, psychologists, etc., okay not okay. I mean after all you're just talking right. Or is there something inherently wrong about discussing things as well.

Others have eluded to sex, do they not believe in sex? Is it bad? Why is drinking bad but eating chocolate okay? See what I mean, so many questions, some of them very silly but very frustrating to an outsider living with someone who I think is really struggling with the beliefs of his childhood but doesn't know what to do and doesn't feel comfortable talking with me lest I get the idea that he is ready to walk away and join my church.

Thanks again for listening everyone. I don't post much because I'm so afraid he'll walk in and find me on this site and it will set everything back like I'm somehow trying to sabotage him. I don't have the best relationship with his folks and I think much of it stems from their beliefs. I only just recently found out the Catholics are held in special contempt by many CSers. I think the fact that I gave them grandchildren (something their daughter never did for them) is my one saving grace. Do they believe in grace? And I'm probably in trouble having the kids ask God to bless them when they say their good night prayers. It really is too much to comprehend.

Broncho — Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:04:39 GMT

Dear Confused,
Has your husband ever tried to read S&H straight through? Would it help if the two of you went through it together from the start? It is really weird reading.
I keep thinking of Captain Kirk in Star Trek and how he used to talk computers to death. He exposed their illogical bits and then they always destroyed themselves. Surely at some point, the illogic of CS would become apparent.
Best of luck.

Broncho

Confused Wife — Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:34:25 GMT

frogs and surfer thank you for your replies. My husband just got back from a visit to his parents which meant notes in the mail for my daughter from the CS church. I threw one of them away. Is that passive aggresive? I just can't stand the way the talk, the tone and the words. It has always seemed somewhat "stepford-like" if you know what I mean.

So I'm still struggling to find a way to get my husband to read the bible and really THINK about what it says. I just read someone's story about Moses and the burning bush. The story had always made so much sense to me until I started reading his CS interpretation of it. CS just makes me feel like such an idiot because of its odd circular non-ending arguments.

I will continue to come back here and hopefully some day the Spirit will direct me to something that will open my dear husbands eyes, ears, mind and heart. But as others have said we are working with God's time not mine.

The funny thing is my MIL (very devout CS) has told my husband about Joel Osteen who from what I've seen seems to be a very mainstream Christian speaker. My husband gets nervous about any book I suggest be it marriage enrichment, self help, etc. that it must be some "Catholic" thing. I try not to get defensive but I sometimes ask him would that be such a bad thing.

So any other thoughts or prayers you could offer would be greatly appreciated.

surferforjesus — Fri, 08 Jul 2005 18:50:43 GMT

Confused Wife

You should email me.... I am dealing with similar situations. It is virtually impossible to see a rosy way out of this long term. But I keep trying. Feel free to get my email from Linda. In talking with others going through similar situations, I find a great deal of therapy.

And BTW.... don't leave the Catholic Church... despite its flaws it is centered on Jesus as Savior...it is your tradition and it needs you.

Best & Love

Surferforjesus

frogs25 — Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:34:20 GMT

Confused Wife,

Up until about 2 years ago I was 90% Christian Science. The other 10% was my own questioning against the religion. I could never put my finger on what it was I didn't get but I always knew there was something about it that wasn't quite right. Any way, two years ago, a wonderful friend I knew from high school got in touch with me, not a CSist, and he began to lightly challenge my beliefs. We would have very intellectual conversations, and the key that made these philosophical conversations work like magic, was for both of us to have an open mind.

We started out by discussing what we believed were the origins of the earth, atoms, molecules, evolution theory. Of course my replies were all based on MBE's interpretation. I remember I even took a concordance and looked up anything that referred to evolution and read those passages from S&H to try to prove to him that I knew what I was talking about, and that MBE was the true revelator of Truth. When ever these discussions would get really deep, we would change the topic.

When I moved here about a year & a half ago to be with him, I still was in limbo. I would get fustrated with praying and not seeing results. When I had a headache one day I was in great pain and when he offered me a tylenol I refused, and continued to remain in pain for the remainder of the day. I told him, look how can a small little pill heal me. I went further to explain to him that a pill is matter, how can something material help it? He explained the science behind it all. He said that the tylenol does not heal the pain, it reduces the pain so that it won't be as severe. He explained that the ingredients that they put in the tylenol sends reactors to the nerves that essentially dull the pain. A few more headaches went by and then after much contemplation, I was ready to trust him, and I knew that just by trying it it was not going to kill me, so I went ahead and tried it.......much to my suprise........it worked!

Although we had many many many philosophical discussions, there was one that made me think more about Christian Science's credibility. I remember one day I was trying to tell him more about MBE, and how she came to her relevation. I explained to him that she had tried other methods, drugs, homeopathy, mesmerism, etc..... My fiance know science and how the human body works very well and after he digested what I had to say he questioned me......You don't think that those drugs she took years before suddenly had a reaction in her body, and then she started to make claims that "she was divinely inspired, and that God appointed her directly" to create a religion and call "Her" discovery Christian Science? I said, hmmm, that's interesting. As much as I tried to read through S&H from cover to cover I could never do it because it seemed as though she kept repeating herself over and over and over, just using different words to get across the same point. I also think this had something to do with it.

I know this is a lot to read, however, this is the way my fiance gently questioned my beliefs, basing everything he knows and understands on the principles of science. He also questioned the Christian Science testimonies found in the Christian Science Sentinel. I picked up some Sentinels at the reading room and read him a couple, an for some of them he though that the immune system took care of the body and healed itself. Another thing I noticed with the testimonies recently is that there are fewer instantaneous healings.....Where are they.......These are the healings that should be proof that CS really works. I even shared will my fiance the so-called healings I have had in my life and I have to say that yes, it was my immune system that eventually healed me of my accidents, pains, and sicknesses. Why do the CSists fool themselves?

At any rate, I think it was his gentle questioning that aided me in withdrawing from CS. He never pushed me to believe his way, but just threw the questions out there and tossed in his perspective based on what I tried to explain what CS is. The key I think is trying to keep an open mind. An open mind is like an open door, it's open, you can see thru it, however, you can still close the door.

Hope some of what I had to say here helps!
toodles,
Frogs25

Confused Wife — Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:22:03 GMT

Wow am I ever glad I found this website! I’ve been saying to a friend for years now “If only I could meet someone who WAS a Christian Scientist and is now a Catholic or at least a TRUE Christian I could ask them so many questions to know how to get through to my husband.” While I realize that this may not answer that question it certainly has given me much to think about and understand. I never knew about the animosity towards Catholics from CS. I also could never understand why they would never say “God Bless you” when I would sneeze. I thought EVERYONE liked to have people praying for him or her. I also kind of thought of it as a cult and then would dismiss the idea and say at least we believe in the same God, we just get there different ways.

So now after almost 12 years I’m stuck. We agreed that when we had children that we could each take them to his or her church. But now I’m having a hard time with this. The only times they go to the CS church is when I’m out of town or his parents are visiting (they are VERY devout—if that is the right term) More often go with me. They have not been baptized but I’m guessing as they get close to 1st communion age they will start to ask to be baptized.

So this forum has given me some ideas but I guess I’m hoping there is a man out there who left his faith even though he knew how hard it would be on his parents. I’m to the point where I don’t hold out much hope for my husband converting as long as his parents are alive even though he has adult onset asthma, which requires several medications to keep in check, which he takes. I think his faith in CS is wavering but I’m really hoping he’ll find Christ. (I must also admit I’m a bit nervous posting that if he should stumble on this and recognize us that it would further close off discussions.)

Like another poster I’m not saying the Catholic Church is the one and only but at this time it is for me. I also know that if I found another church that better met my spiritual needs I would leave even though it would be very difficult for my parents to understand.

So if there is anyone out there with words of wisdom I’d love to hear them. I too would love to be able to share my faith in the salvation of man through Jesus Christ with my husband. In the meantime I’ll keep praying and hoping that the Spirit will keep me alert for those little opportunities to show him the way.

Anonymous — Mon, 18 Apr 2005 10:34:49 GMT

I was born a 3rd generation Christian Scientist and converted to Catholicism.

I first converted to evangelical Christianity, spent some time as Pentecostal Holiness & Baptist, was baptised as a generic Christian (in a lake, by immersion) and eventually was confirmed in the Catholic Church. In respect towards Linda's request I won't go into my reasons for choosing the Catholic church above the others, but my quest was primarily for a church that did not twist the Bible to prove what they had already decided they wanted it to: of which CS is, in my mind, the prime example.

One of the similarities between CS and Catholics is that both groups expect healings to take place and miracles to occur. A major difference is that Catholics have a very stringent standard for proof, with medical reports before and after, and healings are not deemed miraculous unless there is no way that they could have occurred naturally. With a minimum of two miracles per canonized saint, I would call the Catholic record on miraculous healings exemplary.

A major difference is that as a Christian, whether Protestant or Catholic, I can let *God* create reality. I don't have to take responsibility for causing illness, whether my own or others'. Another major difference is that I now know that God knows all about my suffering - he doesn't remain unaware of it because it is nonexistant. Not only does he know about it, He became Man in order to share it.

Catholicism, by the way, has a very good theology of suffering and I find the idea that suffering is not to be denied, or run away from, but faced and transformed as an offering to God - a very positive one. "Count it all joy." Catholicism gives a reason to count it all joy and give thanks in every situation.

I also agree with the other ex-CS Catholic, (oh - welcome to the Church!), that celebrating God's creation and our physical nature in worship is a Good Thing. It gives Him glory.