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RE: Annual Meeting 2008: Simplicity?

followingHim — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 22:50:52 GMT

Anonymous "G," count me in as one [quote]... if you like the early Christians.[/quote]And thus, I revere and refer to the "Canonical writings," those 33 books of the New Testament, written after 45 A.D. and concluded before the conclusion of the First Century (year 99).

The "Gospel of Thomas" does not fit in here, either in chronology (written 3rd or 4th Century A.D.) or in content. It is a "gnostic" document, and espouses esoteric, mystical teachings attributed to Jesus by one "Thomas Didymos," purported to be a twin of Jesus! Now (1) surely at least one of the N.T. gospels would have mentioned a twin brother to the Lord, you would think! And (2) is it conceivable that, if there were such a person as a twin, he would be in doubt of Jesus' claims and powers, even over death!?

No, "G," the "Gospel of Thomas" is one of the pseudoepigrapha, writings spawned by heretics and dissenters who stuck the names of authentic Christian figures upon their spurious texts. "Thomas" is a favorite of many who reject orthodoxy, especially mystics, highly emotional/"spiritualized" types, New Agers, and especially so-called "higher criticism" types like the Jesus Seminar.

A very major theme of gnosticism is belief in a "Christ" which/who is distinct from Jesus. We certainly find this in CS! Here, "Christ" is a kind of spiritual load or emanation which emanates from a higher, ethereal, impersonal godhead. Certain advanced "ascended masters" have managed to transcend this awesome chasm between the corrupt material and the perfect & pure spiritual, and they see Jesus as (probably) the greatest of these avatar-like beings. But they reject the material, especially the body, as impure and deceitful. Jesus was still a [i]material [/i] being, albeit a most advanced one.

John deals with this dichotomy between the "spiritual Christ" and the "material Jesus" in his first epistle:

[quote]1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us. [/quote] (I John 1.1) He establishes a unity among Jesus as God/Logos ("word"), a physical being discernible to sight and touch, and the agent/cause of Eternal life.

"G," stay away from "Thomas" and the like. It's "another gospel" (Gal. 1.6).

RE: Annual Meeting 2008: Simplicity?

Linda — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 10:59:59 GMT

[quote]That's exactly what I liked about CS, though. It was more in line with the Book of Timothy view, that the light in Jesus was in all of us.[/quote]

Can you give some specific references for this? I looked through both 1 Timothy and 2 Timothy and don't see what you're referring to.

EliseG,

[quote]Also, Mary Baker Eddy equates the Comforter or Counselor promised by Jesus with Christian Science. I suppose the Christ, as defined by MBE, is the divine aspect of Jesus' nature
that still endures. However, as I understand it, according to MBE, the Christ is an impersonal manifestation of God's nature. Jesus ascended and then in C.S. theology seems to disappear. And yet the personal Jesus appeared to both
Paul and John (Rev. l: 13-19).
[/quote]

Good point. The operative word here is "defined." Mary Baker Eddy created her own definitions for all kinds of words, but her definitions don't change the real meanings of the words. Her definitions for Jesus, Christ, God, salvation, matter, substance, judgment, Holy Ghost, etc. are just that -- HER definitions. That doesn't make them right. Jesus Christ is who He is regardless of who Mrs. Eddy says He is.

RE: Annual Meeting 2008: Simplicity?

Do_Go_Be_Man — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:50:14 GMT

G,

[quote]It was more in line with the Book of Timothy view ... I never thought that, because a bunch of old guys hundreds of years ago disagreed with Timothy, I should, too.[/quote]

ElsieG,

[quote]As I read the New Testament in context, it confirmed my belief that Jesus Christ continues to be the personal, loving Savior of all who come to Him in faith.[/quote]

We are bound to agree on some things and disagree on others. The thing I would hope we would mutually agree upon is that the Bible is God's word. At least, that's the premise I came to believe through Christian Science class instruction. Mary Baker Eddy ordained [u]two[/u] Pastors of The Mother Church - the Bible [u]and[/u] Science and Health with the Bible alleged as the foundation of her writings.

From the Reform approach to Bible study, I've found the Bible to be consistent from Genesis to Revelation. Others have found the same thing from other perspectives. Some, however, have found inconsistencies and errors causing them to rely upon extra-Scriptural sources to correct their understanding.

There is evidence for which our natural human curiosity demands explanations. I studied many philosophies in between Christian Science and where I am now. At first, I could not abandon Jesus as my Great Teacher. As I came to understand what He taught and who He is, I cannot abandon Him as my Savior. Even though I constantly betray Him, He never leaves me and never will.

Do Go Be Man
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RE: Annual Meeting 2008: Simplicity?

Do_Go_Be_Man — Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:50:30 GMT

Elsie G.,

[quote]Do you agree with me that the role of Jesus is downplayed, and, to my mind, diminished in C.S? If you agree, what do you think is the reason for this?[/quote]
Yes, Christian Science downplays and diminishes the role of Jesus Christ even though the Bible is very clear regarding who Jesus is. To accept Jesus as the Bible represents Him requires acknowledging His divinity.

Christian Science teaches that Jesus was a scientist rather than divine (albeit "the most scientific man that ever trod the globe"). It would be difficult to acknowledge the actual unique role of Jesus while teaching His skills were merely lost science that could be learned and applied by anyone.

As a hypothesis, Christian Science is worth exploring though it ultimately fails. No one other than Jesus has ever demonstrated healing as consistently and reliably as He did. If Jesus' mission on Earth was one of science, I would have hoped He would have been more successful in sharing and teaching. That aspect of the record of His students doesn't establish Him as a "great Teacher". Otherwise, we should routinely experience people rising from the dead, the blind seeing, and the lame walking merely through unseeing the illusion and understanding reality. Some have claimed to "heal the sick, raise the dead, and cleanse the lepers", but I'm not aware of any Christian Scientist to claim the consistency and reliability of Jesus.

Jesus' real power, role, and mission are successful though not accurately represented by Christian Science that only provides "some glimpses of the underlying reality". I believe the Bible, one of the declared Pastors of The Mother Church, very accurately represents Jesus.

A true key to the Scriptures is understanding the Bible in context as God's word rather than rejecting those parts that are initially difficult to understand or inconvenient to a hypothesis pursued too far.

Do Go Be Man
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RE: Annual Meeting 2008: Simplicity?

Linda — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:39:57 GMT

Thanks for the references and links, Do Go. As is my practice, I read the text around the verses to see them in context. It's interesting, but not surprising, that the 2 Corinthians 11:3 reference doesn't extend to verse 4 which says,

4For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.([url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2011:3-4;&version=9;47;]1 Cor 11:4[/url], emphasis added)

[quote]Could someone please explain to me again how I stayed in it for more than 30 years? I know I don't understand.
[/quote]

No I can't, since I didn't leave until I was 30 (maybe 30 is "the age of reason.") :)

RE: Annual Meeting 2008: Simplicity?

Do_Go_Be_Man — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 11:09:55 GMT

ElsieG,

You're right. It was late, the verses jumped around (I was trying to record them as they were read), there was a hole in my mitt, the sun was in my eyes... I'm just plain sorry I messed up. Here are my corrections:

[url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:27;&version=9;47;]Colossians 1:27[/url] [i]Christ[/i]
[url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:3,%2010;&version=9;47;]Colossians 1:3, 10[/url]
[url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2011:3;&version=9;47;]2 Corinthians 11:3[/url]
[url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2015:58;&version=9;47;]1 Corinthians 15:58[/url]
[url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Colossians%201:27;&version=9;47;]Colossians 1:27[/url] [i]Christ[/i]
S&H 333:19-23
Ret 94:25-95:13

In a quick review, I've so far found the most interesting aspect of these passages, aside from their lack of sequence and context, to be the differences in translations of the theme verse: [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians%2011:3;&version=9;47;31;]2 Corinthians 11:3[/url]

The KJV refers to "the simplicity that is in Christ". Modern translations such as the ESV and NIV refer to "sincere and pure devotion to Christ".

Do Go Be Man
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Annual Meeting 2008: Simplicity?

Do_Go_Be_Man — Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:25:41 GMT

I just finished watching the archived webcast of today's Annual Meeting. It's late and I still have much to do tonight, but thought I'd share some notes:

The President of The Mother Church opened the meeting with readings from the Bible and writings of Mary Baker Eddy to introduce the theme of Simplicity:

Colossians 2:27 [i]Christ[/i]
Colossians 1:3, 10
2 Corinthians 11:3, 58
Colossians 2:27 [i]Christ[/i]
S&H 333:19-23
Ret 94:25-95:13

I plan to go back later to read the chunks of the Bible he skipped. Seemed too simple to me.

He then introduced the officers of the church:

Pastor Emeritus Mary Baker Eddy (the camera did not cut to her)
The Board of Directors of The First Church of Christ, Scientist
Treasurer of The Mother Church
First and Second Readers of The Mother Church
Outgoing President of The Mother Church

Following a video presentation by the Board taped in Sao Paulo, Brazil, the Treasurer presented his report:

Funds on hand: $496,000,000
Debt: $0
Expenditures in the last year: $113,000,000
General Fund: $165,000,000 (up $19,000,000 from last year due to increased emphasis by the Board on savings and cutting expenses)

No real comments other than it was the first Annual Meeting webcast I've listened to all the way through.

Could someone please explain to me again how I stayed in it for more than 30 years? I know I don't understand.

Do Go Be Man
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