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RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

Gentle Dove — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 05:23:55 GMT

Sorry, its Psalms 27:10!

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

Gentle Dove — Sun, 07 Sep 2008 05:21:20 GMT

Jill:

A similar situation happened in my Christian Science family. I really don't know what to say to make you feel better except that you are not alone. I also took comfort in the fact that the Christian Science nurses I have known and the ones that are taking care of your mother are very nice and caring. Although she is not getting the kind of help we believe is the best for someone in her situation, I hope you can take comfort in the fact that she is surrounded by loving people. There were times when I could not bear the fact that the church had stolen so much from me and then it took my mother as well. One day I found this Bible verse that I keep remembering over and over: "When my father and mother forsake me, then the Lord will take me up" Psalms 26:10.

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

Jill in Michigan — Sat, 06 Sep 2008 23:36:01 GMT

My mother fell on a flight of stairs. She had compound breaks in like 3 places and several other breaks. She ended up in the ER and had imiate orthopedic surgery she has a nice collection of rods and pins in her legs now. She was fitted with these cool air walking casts and she was up and walking in 5 weeks. The doctor told her to wait until 6 weeks to walk, so walking at 5 weeks was her healing. I was there in the hospital with her and her doctor appointments, he never said she wasn't going to walk again. But her testimony is she recovered from a fall where she was told she was never going to walk again. She even sued the place where she fell! She divorced her husband of 38 years and used to say to me, Mary Baker Eddy divorced so its OK. She even goes by 3 names, Mae Lea Nooe, 2 of them are last names. Talk about cult like behavior! She was a journal listed practioner. She has spent the last couple years in and out of CS nursing homes and hospitals, she has congestive heart failure, a totally treatable illness. She has now sold her home and moved away from her children and grand children to a cs place in California (The Willows) She has very little to do with her children I suspect I will never see her again, I dont think she will ever see any of her children or grandchildren again. She is in her late eighties now and has a serious illness that will kill her sooner (with much agony and pain) than if she has no treatment. I cant and dont want to imagine how it will be for her in the end, all alone.

Sorry to ramble

Its just such a sad sad situation

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

nomorecs — Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:40:13 GMT

[quote][b]Gentle Dove (8/22/2008)[/b][hr]I always wondered that too. Why is the dividing line at the medical point? I have seen such horrible results and suffering. Its like if they did stop brushing their teeth (because they are really just mortal illusions) then all their teeth would rot and fall out. If they stopped wearing glasses they couldn't read their Science and Health. If they stopped feeding their mortal bodies (illusions) they would starve. [/quote]

I remember working so hard in CS to heal my nearsightedness when I was a child and teenager. I felt like a total failure because it never worked, and I had to wear glasses. I read a lot now about how it's okay to seek medical help. But when I was growing up and a young adult in CS, it wasn't like that. It was said that you could go to the dentist, but not use novocaine. I am now a total dentalphobe, because I remember torturous hours in the dentist's chair, having work done without any painkiller. I know I no longer have to do without painkillers, but my experiences remain with me. Also, bones could be set, which never really made sense to me if CS could really heal. But I learned from early childhood that you were not supposed to go to doctors. My grandmother (who was not raised as CS, it was my grandfather who was) had an operation for cancer. I was 12, and I was told no practitioner would pray for her while she was under a doctor's care. That's a pretty strong statement when you're raised in the church. Whatever they may say about being free to seek medical care, the peer pressure is very much against it. And some practitioners have said things like it's better to die under CS treatment than to go to the doctor.

[quote]The ones that deny itis taken to such extremes should just find some other church because if what she says is all so true, it would work and more times than not it doesn't. Other churchs haveanswered prayers and even healings, believe in a loving good God and allow MAN to live and express God and his goodness. There is no need to take such an extreme ridiculous stance on matter. The Christian Scientists are so inconsistent in their logic and behaviors.[/quote]

That makes sense now, but it's not so easy when you're deeply involved in CS. When you are raised in it, you don't know anything else. You are taught that other Christian denominations are good, but not as evolved or enlightened as CS. So why would you go there? That's the way I was raised, anyway.

[quote]Another irksome point: Notice how they always give the glory to Christian Science.."IT" works in their lives as if "IT" the philosophy is what is working.[/quote]

I never noticed that when I was in CS, but I heard many testimonies thanking Mrs. Eddy and Science and Health. I have heard testimonies where God was thanked, also. However, when the healing did not come, it was due to your own lack of spiritual understanding. That's what really made me leave the church. I am not a fundamentalist, nor do I even consider myself a Christian. So my concerns are not doctrinal. My concerns are the psychological damage that I see from CS ways of thinking, especially on those of us who were raised in the church, and whose families have been in it for generations. Linda's book was very eyeopening for me -- that CS is really a form of mind control, even though we're not living in compounds (although Principia came close!) And the fact that I learned at a young age, that my grandmother was abandoned by the church when she went for medical care. The same thing happened to my ex-husband. He had to be on medicines to stay alive after his liver failed, and while he was on the transplant list. But having been raised in CS, he was trying to work for a healing, yet feared that being under medical care was blocking the healing. It was added stress that he did not need. He did die before he got the transplant (only days from it), and I don't know how much he abandoned the medical care in hopes of the CS healing which never came. He wouldn't tell me.

Ann

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

followingHim — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 20:06:48 GMT

Gentle Dove,

A few years ago ("Search" is such a blessing!*) I posted the following. It came to my mind as I was reading your post noting that CS'ists are perfectly comfortable at accomodating "the relative" in maintaining their physical existence, but try to demonstrate "the Absolute" when it comes to their physicological well-being:

[quote]First, even as a grade-school kid, I thought it odd (I would now say inconsistent or hypocritical) that CS'ists deny materiality but not materialism. I thought that we should be off in the wild, living simple, subsistence-oriented, hermitic (and chaste) lives so that we would be freeing ourselves of the bondge of materiality. Instaed, we all lived in comfortable upper-middle-class suburbs!

CS'ists should be ascetics in order to advance metaphysically.
[/quote]

Try sharing this idea with a comfortably affluent CSist!

*I sed ascetic for my search...

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

Gentle Dove — Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:44:10 GMT

I always wondered that too. Why is the dividing line at the medical point? I have seen such horrible results and suffering. Its like if they did stop brushing their teeth (because they are really just mortal illusions) then all their teeth would rot and fall out. If they stopped wearing glasses they couldn't read their Science and Health. If they stopped feeding their mortal bodies (illusions) they would starve....I was always taught it was because Mrs. Eddy says we are to "emerge gently". Why do so many of them carry it to such a tragic ending or why suffer with an illness only to end up in an emergency room or with a disease that has progressed beyond any ability of medical science to fix (but could have been prevented or cured earlier)? God does not need us to be human sacrifices and I know he doesn't want us to suffer to prove him real. Jesus did that for us already. The ones that deny it is taken to such extremes should just find some other church because if what she says is all so true, it would work and more times than not it doesn't. Other churchs have answered prayers and even healings, believe in a loving good God and allow MAN to live and express God and his goodness. There is no need to take such an extreme ridiculous stance on matter. The Christian Scientists are so inconsistent in their logic and behaviors.

Another irksome point: Notice how they always give the glory to Christian Science.."IT" works in their lives as if "IT" the philosophy is what is working...It should be GOD not a "process". Not only do they glorify Mary Baker Eddy, but they glorify a "system of thinking" instead of the all powerful, majestic, and awesome GOD alone!

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

Gentle Dove — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 17:57:55 GMT

I see them use "Dear One" alot in their letters.

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

Linda — Sat, 07 Jun 2008 10:23:44 GMT

[quote]I would like to know where the phrase "the Dear Practitioner" came from. Is this common CS lingo?[/quote]

While many Christian Scientists idolize their practitioners and give them WAY too much influence over their lives, I don't remember hearing the term "dear practitioner" used in everyday conversation. The people I was around would just refer to their "practitioner" rather then their "dear practitioner" when talking about them. (Keep in mind that I'm talking about casual conversation -- not letters or private conversations which would vary greatly depending upon who was involved.)

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

SharonMarie — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:52:04 GMT

Phoenix Rising,

It may be that it is a normal thing in the Christian Science household to be constantly hearing this "dear" thing. I remember my mother who practically idol worshiped these people. For several years she spent most of her time in Minnesota taking care of her practitioner friend who had been in a car accident. We lived in Indiana. So my entire freshman and sophomore years in high school, most of the time my mother was gone. And when she would come home she would sit and cry wanting to be up there with this woman (who by then was on her feet, after having quite a bit of medical care). When my mother died, I came across these letters to this woman that literally made me sick and they all started with "my dear".

Then there was the teacher in Chicago........I wish I knew how many hours I sat outside this woman's office waiting on my mother as she practically kneeled at that woman's feet. And everything that happened in our house had to be checked first with the "dear teacher".

I just think the whole thing is just plain weird!

Sharon

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

followingHim — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 20:26:46 GMT

I think this is common in my religious/ecclesiatic situations. To coin a term, we can call it "guru worship." It's always improper, as we are to focus and bond with the Lord. After all, "There is one intermediary between God and man, the man, Jesus Christ." But part of our fallen condition manifests itself in setting up intermediaries, be they human, "saints," exalted beings, angels, demidgods, or some kind of representative icon.

I propose a tentative hypothesis, and invite comments and criticism. As this incorrect dynamic seems to be especially prevalent among the cults, can we conclude that the more fallen (heretical) a doctrine is, the more likely we will find some form of spiritual-hero worship?

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

Phoenix Rising — Fri, 06 Jun 2008 18:44:32 GMT

"My mother was so obsessed with her teacher, her practioner, and the "who's who" of the church, all the while neglecting her daughters, ..."

I came across this in a recent post by Sharon and wanted to paste it here and make a few comments.

*In my experience this is one of the common themes of the way Christian Science is practiced. This is yet another example.

*If Mark is still around I would like to hear if he observed people obsessing/worshiping their teachers and/or craving to be in their presence, and practitioners exercising power over their patients. My husbands teacher was from the same area of the Detroit suburbs that you lived in. You probably knew her (E.J.) and maybe saw her minions.

*I would like to know where the phrase "the Dear Practitioner" came from. Is this common CS lingo? I was incensed to read that in an email my husband wrote to his male practitioner/teacher...that I was not supposed to see. My husband never sent me emails that said "The Dear Square Peg made a wonderful Thanksgiving dinner for the family" or anything like that! But he is OH so tender with his teacher??? This is just another example of CS wierdness. What makes practitioners or teachers SOOO saintly that thier followers have to call them Dear. My husband doesnt know this guy especially well or on any personal level...but he is Dear? Do you think the doctor that saved his life over and over recently is called Dear? NO!!..but the practitioner/teacher who could NOT heal him is Dear. Again, this is just plain cultish. It is exhalting people unnaturally because they supposedly have studied a religion more than they have. I know that members of a congregation do not feel that the minister is to be worshipped because he got a doctorate in religion.

Square Peg

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

dawn comes — Wed, 16 Jan 2008 08:52:31 GMT

Dear Anonymous,

Your post is so kind and compassionate that I hate to take issue with it. I would like to say, however, that it is important to me that I 'do my best' based on reality, not a false premise. If I, as a gardener, fail to scatter my spring -blooming perennial seeds in the Fall (the correct season for my planting zone), or trim my spring-blooming shrubs incorrectly in the late winter, I will have bare soil and naked shrubs. I will end up disappointed and unsuccessful. None of us does our best all the time in the first place....that is the nature of humanity. But if we are sincerely working hard to accomplish something while approaching it with incorrect knowledge in the first place, we are just as fruitless as if we had hardly tried.

It always puzzles me when people point out the failure of modern medicine in an effort to excuse the suffering so often seen in practicing Christian Science families. Ultimately, we are all going to fall ill and die! In the meantime, it seems odd to me to overlook the truth of the successes in medicine. If you have received your tetanus vaccine, you will be safe working in my garden. If you have not, you will be at risk of a very serious, life-threatening illness. That is simply a fact. A parent who fails to provide that tetanus vaccine to a child is not doing her best at all. She is ignoring reality, and making a choice for a child who cannot.

I would also like to point out that the end result of radical reliance is not always death. It is often just needless suffering. To me, that is just as serious, and it is very sad.

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

Linda — Fri, 31 Aug 2007 19:24:35 GMT

[quote]For me, it's as if once having opened up, I cant help pouring out.. and wanting to share.[/quote]

I REALLY relate to that. It took me years to find former CSists -- and especially fomer CSists who had become born again Christians -- with whom I could share after leaving CS (this was in the days before the Internet). It was a tremendous relief to finally find people who could understand my past and the issues that I was struggling to overcome.

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

all in one — Fri, 31 Aug 2007 15:54:50 GMT

I am so sorry for what you have suffered.
A few months back, out of curiosity, I looked at some of the annual meeting broadcasts on the internet. I wanted to see how it looked to me after some time away from CS.
I was hoping to see that it made sense, and that it was just me who had gone off the rails. Instead I saw these people desperately trying to 'love' everyone, through every word they uttered. Trying to put across how much love they had in their hearts, and it all seemed so false. Much falser than if they just spat it out, and told it like it was. Much less loving than if they had acknowledged their failures, their disappointments, their demonstrations that didn't come to full fruition. My heart ached to bring them into a truer fuller brotherhood. Instead, it was like a smoke screen, a sort of PR front. I was disappointed. Yet not surprised.
In fact, I think it's quite telling that we on this forum, must feel damaged, hurt, amd thus drawn to talk about what went wrong. For me, it's as if once having opened up, I cant help pouring out.. and wanting to share.
I wish I could hug you all, and feel that we ARE all in One. That we are brothers and sisters, and that our experiences in Christian Science were just a stepping stone for our further experience as brothers and sisters in Christ.

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

all in one — Wed, 29 Aug 2007 14:10:38 GMT

I have also seen that same cultist reliance on teachers and practitioners, and especially the sort of exalted image that people have of their teachers sometimes .But I don't think it was something openly encouraged. MRs Eddy was always writing about 'personal sense' and how you shouldn't be swayed by personal sense or 'animal magnetism'. But on the other hand, people didn't seem to recognize that this is what it often was. I think the whole association meeting thing and the way people flocked like salmon to their associations every year no matter how far away might have encouraged this. But again, I don't think it was something the church encouraged. That's why they tried to dissuade people from attending annual meeting so much in later years (although I dont know what its like now, as Ive been away from the church for about 6 or 8 yrs now.

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

renee — Fri, 11 May 2007 10:57:21 GMT

[left]This is a very rich thread and I am really grateful it was brought up again. With everything we just went through with my grandmother this really reminded me of things we dealt with regarding her practitioner.

Reading through this post it struck me how desperate family members can feel standing by just watching a loved one die, from God only knows what. I remember that same feeling as my grandmother lie there in her bed growing sicker by the moment. I felt so helpless. Not just for her, but for my mom and my children as well.We had finally convinced my g-mom to seek medical care and Granna then said that she should call the practitioner to let her know of her decision. Within minutes you could see my g-mom questioning her decision. The practitioner had told her she had "right to seek her perfection" and to basically ignore what we were saying. I was so angry I wanted to crawl through the telephone.

Another member posted in another thread that their father had recently married the practitioner who had done the work for their mother. The mother in question has been deceased only 8 months. I think to say this is unethical is the understatement of the year. It ties right into what other posters have said regarding letting these teachers and practitioners having control over ones lives.

I would also like to point out that the medical community has certain checks and balances. It is by no means perfect but they do try to at least review every case in which there seems to have been human error. That happens even in Veterinarian medicine. How could we have better helped this patient, etc? In CS there is no such system. Practitioners have to answer to no one basically. I find it very unusual now being outside looking in that practitioners are left unsupervised. Is there a committee that has a process to review questionable practices by a CS practitioner? How can one even prove that a practitioner is really even doing "work" at all? And they say we have blind faith! It's these types of issues that leave me shaking my head at myself. I am really shocked that it took me so long to let go of it.

On another note. Nearly a year ago my mom was standing on the part of a ladder that says "DO NOT STAND HERE". Anyway, she slipped and ripped a huge gash in her shin which required stitches. The nurse then told her they needed to give her a tetanus booster. Mom said it wouldn't be a booster for her but a first time vacc. Well, come to find out you can't get a tetanus shot on its own. The first time it must be given with the DPT. Be sure and tell a healthcare worker if you have never been vaccinated and now are in need of one. Just an FYI.[/left]

RE: Cult Like Behavior With Teachers and Practitioners

Do_Go_Be_Man — Fri, 11 May 2007 06:12:37 GMT

Elixir,

[quote]Are you still a Christian Scientists? or are you still practicing Christian Science? if so, I think this forum is for ex-Christian Scientists who left the church. and we support each other with our past experiences and stenghten with the solid teachings of Jesus.[/quote]
TMCL is still practicing CS. He's been a valued and respected contributor to these forums. Though he no longer posts messages or replies, I believe he does still read the forums.

These forums are for CSists, former CSists, and anyone with an interest in CS. Obviously there is a focus on CS with which CSists tend to not agree, however, all are welcome.

Do Go Be Man
<><

Anonymous — Sat, 07 Oct 2006 10:07:06 GMT

Thanks, I've bookmarked it. But it looks as if there's little bit of a learning curve...

Erol

<< if you have a concordance to the Bible

I use www.biblegateway.com a lot when posting online. It has many different translations of the Bible and also has some word-search capability. >>

Linda — Fri, 06 Oct 2006 20:32:58 GMT

if you have a concordance to the Bible

I use www.biblegateway.com a lot when posting online. It has many different translations of the Bible and also has some word-search capability.

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:26:28 GMT

Hi Jan,

Actually that would be a good moniker. "Flying fingers." Kind of a pity I chose Erol ;-)

On one occasion Jesus put people out of the room so the healing work would be unhindered by mental opposition. On another occasion it is reported that he didn't do a lot of healing work because of the unbelief of the people in the area.

Not all of Jesus' healings were instant. One healing of blindness required more than one treatment. The man initially had blurred vision and people looked like trees to him. Jesus had to give another treatment before he could see properly.

I don't have my books to hand but these should be easy to look up if you have a concordance to the Bible.

Erol

<< Thanks for your response Erol, you must have flying fingers as I had only just posted my reply.

What I meant was do you think that people's actions or thoughts got in the way of Jesus healing people? I can find no evidence of it. In fact the healing was always instant.

Jan >>

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:20:33 GMT

followingHim,,

Thank you for your kind words.

CS isn't really abstract. If you liked, you could put the 600 pages of *Science and Health* in four words: "have faith in God".

I don't have any stats on the academic background of CS college graduates. My impression from youth and student meetings is that they go right across the board.

A disproportionate number of CS people have some interest in or connection with the visual arts in my experience, though I'm not sure why that is.

I think I picked up the window analogy somewhere. The car analogy is mine.

Regards,

Erol

<< Erol,

Excellent analogies. Ever notice how CS'ists are good at comparative descriptions: analogies, metaphors, and similies? It would be interesting to know what proportion of CS'ists majored in English.* I'd wager, a lot! Either CS is a religion which is attractive to those prone to an interpretative ("artsy"?) mentality, or the nature of CS doctrine produces it.

I say it's more the latter: CS is such an abstract religion, it forces people to stretch their imaginations and literary skills to explain it in practical terms.

Excellent analogies--are they yours? Anyway, let's not get too off-topic here. This thread is on Teachers & Practioners.

*Or disciplines such as art, philosophy (like you), and so on. >>

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:19:55 GMT

Thanks for your response Erol, you must have flying fingers as I had only just posted my reply.

What I meant was do you think that people's actions or thoughts got in the way of Jesus healing people? I can find no evidence of it. In fact the healing was always instant.

Jan

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Oct 2006 09:08:08 GMT

Hi Jan,

Drugs as we know them today weren't in use in biblical times, though there are references to e.g. painkillers--Jesus refused one on the cross.

I'm not sure about vitamins from a CS point of view. I don't take them myself. My CS teacher definitely recommended against them. Having said that, as long as people eat food, I think it's important to eat a varied and natural diet.

Evil has no power, but sometimes the supposed power of evil needs to be specifically denied and the all-power of God affirmed. I believe I have personally experienced physical healing through doing this, which I've described elsewhere. It is quite correct that the healing comes from God, and anyone who thinks that he/she is the source of healing power is mistaken. Having said that, there are many passages in the New Testament where Jesus requires us to be spiritual healers. But the source of the healing is in God, not in human beings.

Hope that is of help--

Erol

<< Errol,

I don't have the same time to write as many here do, but appreciate your response. Can you give me an example of this (mixing drugs whatever with prayer) happening in the time of Jesus? Do you think as my friend does that vitamins also get in the way?

I feel and think different. The power and choice of God is just that and overcomes all. My friend believes in Animal Magnetism - I believe in deliverance from evil. Ask God for protection and it will be received - absolutely nothing can get in the way. If we believe another person can harm or are harming us with their thoughts - then we are passing the buck - and at the same time rejecting the ultimate protection from God. We make a grave error of pretence - when we try to create God as we think He should be instead of bowing down and accepting His total control. John the Baptist called Jesus "the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world". This made Him perfect - without mistakes and perfect also means good.

Why do people want to heal? Is it a form of Godly power that they crave? Why can’t people accept that all healing comes from our Creator and it is His choice. For the sake of a family member my mother prayed over a dead dog and the dog was raised out of death, she attributed nothing of herself and thanked God for his mercy.

Jan >>

Anonymous — Fri, 06 Oct 2006 08:54:36 GMT

Errol,

I don't have the same time to write as many here do, but appreciate your response. Can you give me an example of this (mixing drugs whatever with prayer) happening in the time of Jesus? Do you think as my friend does that vitamins also get in the way?

I feel and think different. The power and choice of God is just that and overcomes all. My friend believes in Animal Magnetism - I believe in deliverance from evil. Ask God for protection and it will be received - absolutely nothing can get in the way. If we believe another person can harm or are harming us with their thoughts - then we are passing the buck - and at the same time rejecting the ultimate protection from God. We make a grave error of pretence - when we try to create God as we think He should be instead of bowing down and accepting His total control. John the Baptist called Jesus "the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world". This made Him perfect - without mistakes and perfect also means good.

Why do people want to heal? Is it a form of Godly power that they crave? Why can’t people accept that all healing comes from our Creator and it is His choice. For the sake of a family member my mother prayed over a dead dog and the dog was raised out of death, she attributed nothing of herself and thanked God for his mercy.

Jan

followingHim — Fri, 06 Oct 2006 07:26:08 GMT

Erol,

Excellent analogies. Ever notice how CS'ists are good at comparative descriptions: analogies, metaphors, and similies? It would be interesting to know what proportion of CS'ists majored in English.* I'd wager, a lot! Either CS is a religion which is attractive to those prone to an interpretative ("artsy"?) mentality, or the nature of CS doctrine produces it.

I say it's more the latter: CS is such an abstract religion, it forces people to stretch their imaginations and literary skills to explain it in practical terms.

Excellent analogies--are they yours? Anyway, let's not get too off-topic here. This thread is on Teachers & Practioners.

*Or disciplines such as art, philosophy (like you), and so on.

Anonymous — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 14:15:38 GMT

Hi Jan,

Prayer in Christian Science is not "to" someone. It involves declaring and understanding the presence of God, the ever-presence of Spirit, the Kingdom of Heaven right where a material power seems to operate. If you read the chapter on "Prayer" in the Christian Science textbook, *Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures* by Mary Baker Eddy, it will explain it. I believe the book is available on-line. (Try Spirituality.com.)

Prayer could be compared to cleaning a window that is clouded over, so that the sun can shine through more clearly. Cleaning the window doesn't make the sun shine--it just helps us to see the light more clearly. The light is already there. (In the comparison, the window represents human consciousness and the sun represents God, or Spirit.)

Mixing prayer and drugs (spiritual and material means) is like pulling a car stuck in the mud forwards and backwards at the same time. Either way might work on its own, but both used together can be disastrous! That's why CS don't mix methods, not from any sense of perversity, or ultra-puritanism, or control-freakery or whatever.

Erol

Anonymous — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 05:33:13 GMT

Errol, who is the CS practioner praying to?

I just don't get it
Jan

Anonymous — Sat, 23 Sep 2006 18:24:48 GMT

As a Christian Scientist for thirty years or so I think a lot of what is described as CS here is foreign to what Mary Baker Eddy taught. She was constantly warning about "personal sense", against setting people up on pedestals etc. (Read the biographies of her by Robert Peel to see what I mean.)

I've had many healings that I ascribe to CS prayer, either my own or that of practitioners. I've also had conditions that were only partially alleviated, and other things that went away of their own accord in the course of nature.

However, one experience stands out as a warning. I was having dental treatment (some root canal work as far as I remember) and I had a practitioner treating me (either for the tooth problem or something else--I don't remember). Unwisely, I had neglected to tell the practitioner I would be seeing the dentist and having an anaesthetic, so she continued to treat me through CS prayer. Anyway in the course of the dental treatment I nearly hit the roof! Evidently the anaesthetic the dentist had used didn't work.

My conclusion was that the work of the practitioner had probably interfered with the efffect of the anaesthetic, since it was based on the opposite premise (i.e. spiritual not material). If such a thing happens in the course of dental treatment it is bad enough, but imagine the situation with a person undergoing major surgery...

The reason CS people don't "mix" medicine with CS prayer is that it is unfair to both systems--they tend to counteract each other.

Many years ago I was taught in CS class instruction (not in the US) that a CS person should take a child to a doctor when any "normal," non-CS parent would do so. It is certainly what I would do, no matter what jurisdiction I lived in.

Erol

Square Peg — Tue, 06 Jun 2006 20:05:25 GMT

I was just reading a testimony on the internet entitled "But is it Christian" Testimony of Kathy, and she mentioned this...which certainly is exactly what I have seen so much of in my experience with CS.

"We also had a lodger in the house who was a Christian Science practitioner. I found his presence very disturbing and I felt that he exercised a lot of control over mother. "

Square Peg — Wed, 03 Aug 2005 20:05:34 GMT

Jean, tmcl, Linda, everyone....

I always feel badly after making a post, because I go from a calm and thoughtful question to a rant. So many memories of unsavory or unintelligent CS behavior get dredged up from the past. I know all of you are or were CS and have families that are or were and I dont mean to attack you for who you are or who you were. You have ALL been so kind and loving in your replies. I just want to hug you all when I read the things you say. Especially you tmcl, because it must be really hard for you to read all this. *chuckle* Its much more typical of a Cser to grab the mute button and not listen to anything that might influence them to some sort of error eh? So you are a real crusader for being here. I have read all of what you have said with much interest. Thank you! And thank you all so much for listening. Its really helping me to talk, to get it out.

This is what is puzzling to me...that we have basically good people here who are stuck in this box and making bad decisions...silly decisions by anyone's standards, but sadly, deadly decisions too. Thats why I have decided CS is a cult. The people who followed Jim Jones werent bad people. They were in a box too, they couldnt think for themselves. Its like pack behavior. Things people wont do on their own, but as part of a pack they act in abnormal ways...taking cues from others in the pack..acting abnormally.

I have lots of compassion for Mrs. Swan. I love a lot of people who are CSers. They are good and kind people. But there is just SOMETHING about this religion that puts people in that close minded place and wont let them think like a normal person. SO much pressure to behave. I remember that when we would call my husbands parents once a week, after we were married...for as long as we were married, he would always be sure to tell them that he went to church. Like...Ive been a good boy this week. Just odd ...

Heres another story....

My poor practitioner mother in law...the walking talking Christian Scientist, after all the years of criticizing me for going to doctors and treating me as if I was a heathen, after refusing a prayer request for my father, who was in the hospital with a heart attack, after years of speaking of materia medica as if it was the spawn of an alien race come to conquer the world, she was in terrible pain and went to the hospital. I never liked my mother in law. But I sure felt sorry for her...after a life of trodding on materia medica, she suddenly needed it, and it sure helped with the pain. And now there was no one to pray for HER. SHE needed the help of doctors. She was getting a much needed lesson in humility, in compassion, in reaping what you sow, to say nothing of what a bit of morphine can do. But I just felt horribly sad. This is not what Christianity ought to be. Im not a very religious person, but I dont dismiss the power of prayer. How terribly sad that these church members couldnt get together, in this, her greatest hour of need, to pray for her. What would Jesus do? How do you spend a lifetime of going to church every Sunday and Wednesday night, reading the lesson every day, and somehow miss the mark of the LOVE that Jesus showed and tried to teach...doesnt it all boil down to this? ...It doesnt all boil down to not using materia medica, it all boils down to love. My husband was left with the responsibility of "saving his mother" through prayer...finding the words of some old teacher who said it was Ok to mix CS and prayer...they clung to that. She died of pancreatic cancer. My husband feels guilty. And I wonder if they considered that she had to eat all her own lifetime of words in the end. That her church was not there for her after years and years of membership, it turned its back on her. I am not much of a fan of organized religion, but if I have observed one redeeming feature of belonging to a church...its how much it helps in tragic times, to have all the parishoners standing behind you, supporting you. How do CSers love a church like this? Its all just wrong wrong.

*hugs* to you all....

Square Peg

Linda — Wed, 03 Aug 2005 19:34:03 GMT

what you describe as her mind-set seems very foreign to me.

tmcl,

I'm truly glad for you. You seem immune to what I have seen in so many current and former Christian Scientists from literally all over the country.

tmcl — Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:16:33 GMT

Linda,

I think Suzanne Buckingham's illness and death is very tragic, and have felt bad about it from the first time I read your article on CS attempting a comeback. You quote a paragraph in this thread in which you essentially describe Suzanne's mind-set as a Christian Scientist, and I fell sure that that there are Christian Scientists out there with that mind -set. However, what you describe as her mind-set seems very foreign to me. I don't feel that I think that way, and at the same time, I feel that I am doing my best to follow Mrs. Eddy's teachings.

JeanW — Wed, 03 Aug 2005 17:02:34 GMT

Square Peg, you hit the nail on the head (only slight pun intended) with this sentence in your last post:

<< Only people closed up in the CS community can think this is normal and loving behavior. >>

What people are most closed up in the CS community? People like me who were raised in it and multi-generational in it! Linda's post captures it so well, we are (or in the case of ex-ers, were) stuck in that box, and cannot see outside it.

Second sentence that hit home:

<< Who wouldnt go to the ends of the earth to relieve the suffering of their child? >>

Well, inside that box, where you believe that if you don't rely on CS, you are giving up your best chance at genuine healing, that's what you think you are doing... avoiding the temptation to try something that you've been taught your whole life doesn't really work anyway (medicine)! This is of course from my own perspective, but I have to believe that Mrs. Swan was under severe internal pressure to use CS for her child in part because she failed to do so for herself! As astonishing as that may sound to you, inside those warped walls of the believers, she probably was blaming herself for her own abandonment of CS, and trying to do better by her child.

By "submitting to community opinion / pressure", i.e. taking my son to a doctor to try to get a diagnosis I felt I was under an extreme cone of silence within the CS movement. Why? Because what I was doing was not in accord with how I was raised or what I was taught! If I would say anything to my fellow CSists, I would be giving a voice to error, making it real, and harming their ability to "keep their thought clear." It's pretty weird, now, looking back 3 plus years, to see how stuck I was. I was a "failure" in my own mind, for not being able to heal him myself, and I was a bad CS mother because he was not a believer.

What was really bad, though, was that I was relieved that CS did not take with my son. I had a sense of guilty joy that he would not be stuck in the same mental maze that I was in! Only as I began to acknowledge how much I was being helped by non-CS therapy was I able to admit to myself that I had ceased believing, probably 10 years earlier, and been going through the motions, in denial of my own feelings (what? You don't believe CS can heal X? You must correct your thought, my dear!)

Now it looks so clear that I was numbed and in denial, but from inside that box, as Linda notes, it just is not that easy.

I've really enjoyed your posts, Square Peg, and I'm sorry you are having to deal with these issues... but glad you found this forum in which to vent, discuss, resolve, and find support!

- Jean W.

Linda — Wed, 03 Aug 2005 06:10:57 GMT

the specific things that perpetuate the myth of healing.

Square Peg,

Some possible explanations for CS healings are discussed in the last question of the Q&A section on CS on the Christian Way web site (the question is entitled: "If a Christian Scientist gets well after treating a problem with Christian Science prayer, doesn’t that prove that Christian Science is a spiritually scientific system of healing?")

Regarding why many CSists will allow themselves to die under CS care when they are obviously not getting a healing: You might get some insight into this by reading the case history of Suzanne Buckingham in my article, "Christian Science: Attempting a Comeback." I was in touch with Suzanne's daughter throughout the worst of Suzanne's dying process, and it would have been unbelieveable to me if I hadn't previously talked with several other people who had watched loved ones suffer terribly -- or suffered terribly themselves -- under CS treatment. What made Suzanne's case unusual was that her daughter tried to get CS Church officials to intervene. It was a unique look at the CS Church in action (or inaction). Near the end of my discussion of Suzanne's case, I make the following comment regarding Suzanne's decision to hang onto CS to the end:

"Suzanne Buckingham “could” have sought medical treatment. But as a mature and dedicated believer, could she really choose the medical option? She was sure that Christian Science could heal her if only she understood it well enough. She believed that her practitioner could help her achieve the required level of understanding. She knew that going to a doctor would damage her spiritual life and deprive her of any Christian Science care. And she had been taught to deny the physical evidence in front of her and to emotionally minimize her physical situation. No, Suzanne could not go to a doctor; she was trapped in an emotional and spiritual box that prevented her from considering any care other than Christian Science treatment."

Square Peg — Tue, 02 Aug 2005 20:21:26 GMT

Ive been reading this thread thru again...thanks everyone, for your comments. Thought I'd reply to a few things.

Confused Wife....we have much in common. I know how you feel. I finally stopped going to church with the family too. Took a lot of gumption to do it too.

Jean...you mentioned the "rush and awe of gratitude". My husbands mother was constantly reminding him that she prayed for him daily and has been since the day he was born. She also often reminded him of the difficulty of his birth. *sigh* I saw this kind of talk as manipulation...and I must say it really worked for her. She achieved a position just shy of Eddy in her family. Im sure they all felt this "awe and gratitude" towards her...because they surely would not be still alive without her. This is maybe why people find themselves "worshiping" their teachers and practitioners. Now I know this is not how it is SUPPOSED to work...but it seems to BE that way...SOMETIMES.

I DO agree with you about adult CSers having the right to suffer and die if they chose it. I believe this about my friend. Radical reliance was his choice. BUT, I DO find myself very angry with the people who perpetuate the myth of healing....who cause this to happen....and in the long run its all CSers. Some to a larger degree than others. Ummm am thinking that would make another thread...the specific things that perpetuate the myth of healing.

Im vague now about the legal specifics of the case against the Twitchells and the Swans. But, I DO know that one of the shocking things about the Swans was how much and how long that baby suffered, especially in light of the fact that Mrs. Swan herself sought out medical care for herself for a painful condition. Mainstream America cant help but be shocked at what happened to this child. Only people closed up in the CS community can think this is normal and loving behavior. This is a great country, and I believe we try to tolerate wierdness whenever possible. But there is a point where a human being must draw the line, and so the courts. I could allow my friend the adult to kill himself for his religion, but if it had been his child I would have called the police if necessary...undoubtedly losing my lifelong friends. Sooo... yes, let people try to cure through prayer...let people go without immunizations, but it does not follow that we should stand by and see children suffer. Again, this is CULTISH...to be SO blinded by a religion that you can watch your own child suffer and die. Who wouldnt go to the ends of the earth to relieve the suffering of their child? Well, we know who.

Yeah, I know what you mean by no casual Csers. Yes, maybe you are right about Jews turning Catholic. Judiasm is another religion that can be more of a lifestyle... like CS.
I just seems like, with most religions, people grow to adulthood and practice to a lesser or greater degree the religion their parents introduced them to... or end up going to another church when the get married and its no big deal. With CS its like being in a box you cant get out of. I cant IMAGINE my husband ever giving up CS.

rubyndora — Tue, 02 Aug 2005 11:48:46 GMT

Square Peg, would you email me personally at rubyndora-junk@yahoo.com? I want to ask you about the death of the relatively young friend of yours.

JeanW — Sun, 31 Jul 2005 19:32:17 GMT

Sorry, Square Peg, there was one more thing I wanted to comment on from your earlier post, where you said:

"I think this is rarely such a monumental problem with a person who grew up as a Methodist and wants to become a Presbyterian, or even a jew who wants to be a Catholic."

I might agree with you about Methodist to Presbyterian (main-stream protestant to main-stream protestant Christian), but I will take exception to the "Jew who wants to be a Catholic". I've heard of Jewish parents sitting shiva (sp? -- i.e. considering them dead) for their children who converted to Chrisitianity.

On a personal level, I have a brother in law who was raised as a Bible-believing fundamentalist Christian. He converted to Judaism as an adult and was afraid to tell his parents. Eventually his children told their grandparents, and oh, what a wailing and gnashing of teeth ensued.

It's not just CS. It's any denomination that believes their way to be the only path to salvation. It's in how we were raised, the respect we hold for our parents, and wanting to preserve their world vision as long as possible. I think this is more in the parent / child relationship and how much importance the parent placed on religion. Believe me, there are very few "casual" CSists! There are some really old threads on this forum where we got into that discussion.

- Jean W.

JeanW — Sun, 31 Jul 2005 18:13:22 GMT

Square Peg,

You are forgiven the rant, but you'll have to forgive one of mine in return. You brought up a hot button for me, and that is what happens to sick children of well-meaning but deluded CS parents! The minions you originally referred to are adults, and can freely choose to give their time and effort to services provided for their teacher / practitioners, whatever their internal motive. My father in his dying days was an adult and had the right to make his own choices.

But you change the argument completely when you bring up children. Children have no voice in their care, but are dependent upon their parents to make wise choices for them.

Rant begins: This is based on feelings that seethed inside of me as a CS parent when the Swans lost their child under CS care in South Dakota. It seethed inside me when the Twitchells were prosecuted in Massachusetts. It seethed inside me when I heard of any CS parent losing a child. The reason it seethed was because I was both a child who had been raised in CS and a CS parent, and I felt that nobody was truly on my side.

The church would say it was my choice to have CS treatment or medical for my child. But if I chose CS treatment for my child and there was a bad result, I would be legally "on my own." The very fact that I would question support from the church was a sign that I did not have enough "faith", and maybe I'd better go to the medical, because I wasn't being a good enough CS. How scary is that? Your religion abandons you in your hour of need (similar to something you said in an earlier post).

Despite my sympathetic feelings for the parents whose loss was great, my anger at the United States legal system that left CS parents in this Catch-22 was greater. While watching the Donahue episode you wrote of in horror, I realized I was at odds with the extreme defensiveness within the community of Christian Scientists I went to church with. My position to the legal community was this, even while I was a Chrisitan Scientist: If you are going to send people to jail over what happens to their children, then repeal all the false promises laws that say it's OK to use prayer alone if you belong to a recognized church that believes in this form of treatment! Make it clearly illegal to withhold medical treatment if that's the basis on which you intend to prosecute, or make it clearly legal that exempt means exempt! Don't leave these poor parents in limbo, because that's where they are.

These laws have been losing ground since Rita Swan formed C.H.I.L.D. Even before that Christian Scientists were taught to be obedient to the law of the land. Starting in the earliest years, as medical requirements for the care of children came into being, the legal arm of the C.S. church (Committees on Publication) lobbied for exemptions from these legal requirements to immunize our children, to have them examined, even to have them weighed and measured in school! But if / when something goes wrong, there is the legal standard used in courts of law that uses what a "reasonable person" would do in the circumstances to determine "neglect" or "abuse". A true believer CS is not a "reasonable person" in times of crisis! Especially not where their child is concerned. Even more if the parent was raised with no medical care him or herself!

When my child suffered a broken arm in second grade, I did not think twice about taking him to the emergency room and having it set. Why? Because Mrs. Eddy makes a specific reference that it's "better" to leave the setting of broken bones to a surgeon. It was still agonizing to be in that hospital waiting room! Later when CS was ineffective in healing my child of what eventually was diagnosed as fibromyalgia syndrome (at age 15) it was harder for me to make the choice. It was in some ways fortunate that my child was old enough to have a say, and that the practitioner abandoned his case. When your child is not functioning in school, you need to know what's happening in the eyes of "normal" society, you can't just keep him home every day!

Rant ended

As far as I'm concerned, Square Peg, feel free to rant away, as long as it's with the understanding that things on the inside don't always look the same as they do on the outside of CS. And perhaps that only supports your contention that the behavior within is "cultish".

- Jean W.

Square Peg — Sun, 31 Jul 2005 16:36:10 GMT

Jean,

Thanks for your reply. What you say is very interesting.

I suppose the minion like behavior that I have seen is in no way like people in a congregation wanting to help out the poor minister. These teachers were wealthy. Yes, the minions like to help do things, and joyfully Im sure, but it was to be in the presence of the enlightened one. It was because of a kind of adoration. The minions even competed among themselves to be THE right hand man so to speak...the consigliare. I talk about this because it is a pattern that I have noticed in more than a few relationships between teacher/practitioner and their students/patients. This is religious venreation, great devotion to a person. That is cultish. There is a love of controlling/dominating and a desire to be controlled/dominated. No, its not with everyone, but its too much to be ignored. And I dont think that this is what Christian Science in its pure sense is about, but its a big way in which it is practiced.

Ive not even looked up the larger definitions of what a cult is. I see thats in your book Linda so I want to read it. But CS DOES kill people. How is that any different than Jim Jones really? He did it in one fell swoop, but CS has had a lot more deaths chalked up to it over the years than the horrible Mr. Jones. We all consider Mr. Jones followers as being totally irrational to believe what he said and let themselves die. But how is CS different than that? What sense does it make to have a serious health issue and get treatments day in and day out ...for months...that dont work...and lay there until you eventually die. Even if it IS a problem medical science cant cure, they can at least alleive the pain. Was it the Smarts? that were on the Donahue show years ago, who let their child die of a twisted bowel or something like that? How is that different than Jim Jones telling the parentss to give their children the drink. Mrs. Smart herself saw a doctor when she was in so much pain she couldnt take it...but she let her child suffer for a week before he died.. Oh yeah...I remember when the child finally went into a coma the practitioner...over the phone...said her treatments were working as the child was finally resting. bleh! Another fabulous MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS over the phone to put the parents minds to rest. Criminal!

Believing in a RELIGION so much that you allow a child of your body to suffer and eventually die, in the face of all reason, dispite the fact that 99% of the educated people in the world understand the value of medical science... THAT is cultish behavior. How much worse can it get? What more terrible thing can you do than be responsible for the death of your own child? What more terrible thing can be done than to give treatments that are clearly not working on a child in great pain and then make some stupid medical diagnosis over the phone..that practitioners are not supposed to do...but do all the time.... to lull the parents into believing everything is just fine.

Sorry again for the rant. : (

Linda — Sun, 31 Jul 2005 12:08:41 GMT

I appreciate the thoughtful discussion going on here.

Square Peg,

I don't know if you've run into my book yet, but I think you might enjoy reading it as you think through the issue of cultic relationships in CS. The book examines CS in light of the criteria that cult expert Robert J. Lifton outlined as being indicators of whether a group or person is exerting mind control over others. I bent over backwards to be gentle and fair in my examination (the overwhelming majority of my references are from pro-CS sources) although my publisher gave it a rather harsh title -- The Religion That Kills. You can read large portions of the book using amazon.com's "Search Inside the Book" feature.