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RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

nomorecs — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:56:51 GMT

[quote][b]IleftCSin74 (4/14/2008)[/b][hr]Sorry to come down on you so hard. I couldn't even remember the name of the camp in Missouri. Thanks to your site now I remember their name. I have a lot of buried anger towards the religion. My stepdad tried to separate his church from the abusers from his church before his death. Just a month ago my fiance's mother tried to get me to watch some video put out by some charasmatic Father who's sermon was about coming back to the Catholic Church. It did not go over too well with me, as my own mother has tried for many years to get me to come back to CS. It just shows the level of the buried animosity when it explodes out3 to 4decades later. I have seen many therapists for my other problems but never been successful finding a group of similarly-abused ex-CSers. And you folks are all religious folks. I have been unable to trust any religion for 35 years or more.

No hard feelings towards you or your mission. I prefer to discuss my issues free from religion. All of the pain and suffering just spills out whenever I discuss religion.

Mark[/quote]

Actually, not everyone on this site is religious. I also feel no interest in becoming involved in any organized religion after my Christian Science experiences. I was a 4th generation Christian Scientist, and went to the A/U camps, Principia, and class instruction, and was a Second Reader. I left in 1986, at the age of 33.

My sisters and brother all left also. One sister is nonreligious like me; one became Presbyterian (her husband's church, and also the one my mother was raised in), and my brother just drifted away from CS, and married a Catholic. Now widowed, my mother no longer considers herself a Christian Scientist. It was my father's family that was strong in it -- his sister(my aunt) is still a very strong CS, and involved in Principia, as is my cousin who coaches at the Upper School, and is putting all of his six children through Principia.

I used to wonder if I would ever be interested in another church, but I never felt any wish to explore that. I consider myself to be a spiritual person, but not religious. I love learning about history, and including the history of religion, so I see organized religion as a human-created part of society. After dealing for 20 years with my buried rage over so much that happened to me in Christian Science, I just have no interest at all in organized religion, or even in the Bible, though I respect the religious paths of others.

Ann

RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

nomorecs — Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:14:48 GMT

I was at the A/U camps in 1971 and 1972, but I did have a positive experience there. I stuck with the lower mountain climbs, to about 11,000 feet, and anyway, I grew up in Denver and was in the mountains frequently, so I was well adapted to high altitude. I do remember, however, that those who took the higher climbs up to 14,000 feet and higher, did not take any oxygen.

As for the sexual misconduct, during my freshman year at Principia College, it became fairly common knowledge that one of the teachers took several of the male students skinny dipping. Don't know if he was a counselor at one of the camps as well. I can't remember his name, although I could look it up in my yearbook. He was not at the college the following year, and it was said that was the reason, but nothing was said officially, of course.

Ann

RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

IleftCSin74 — Tue, 22 Apr 2008 13:48:47 GMT

Do Go:

It has been more than two weeks since I made my requests for information from AU and the Cedars camps. I only asked the Cedars for dates of attendance and any photos from those sessions that they have in their archives. It may be that the Cedars does not maintain year-round personnel to answer these types of questions. A Kathy Lawson did initially respond from AU but has not provided any of the information that I requested such as the dates of my attendance or anything about the death of my friend there. The lack of information about my friend's death is very odd. I have checked numerous places for any record and have found nothing. There is no obituary record or any mention of his death in the local Buena Vista newspaper archives. Social Security has no record of his death either, though he was 17 at the time. I have been stonewalled in other places too. I have to wonder whether the camp even reported his death at the time. Then there is the oddball offer to house me there when in my first email I plainly stated that I had not been a CSer since the fall of 1974. To say the least I am a little leery of their offer.

Did you ever get a copy of my mom's book? I discovered that I have 3 copies of the revised 1997 edition. I would be willing to mail you a copy. I could send it to Christian Way in Phoenix or mail it to you directly if you were to share an address. My mother has been active in opposing the initiatives of CHILD at the State legislative level, and lambastes both Rita Swan and Caroline Fraser in her book HEALING. I would be surprised if Linda didn't know who she was. She is a very vocal defender of State law protecting CS-healing exemptions. She was involved in a case in the Ohio legislature some years ago, and has testified before the CA legislature more recently. Of course, she is making a six-figure salary faith-healing over the phone.

Let me know about the book.

Mark

RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

Do_Go_Be_Man — Tue, 15 Apr 2008 13:27:05 GMT

Mark,

It is unfortunate that so much abuse has been falsely committed in the name of religion. Looking at even today's headlines regarding the sect in Texas, we don't have to go back to the Crusades or Jonestown to find heinous abuse cases. We also have our own personal examples.

I went through my periods of rejecting organized religion and encountered less gross examples of abuse. Coming out of CS, I was a member of two mainstream churches over a few years and ran up against some outrageous abuses and failures to stand by what they professed to believe including a pastor who unconditionally defended a child molester and declared the Bible to be irrelevant.

There was a time I thought I would never set foot in a church again.

For me, a church should be a hospital for sinners rather than a museum for saints. Based on my beliefs, we are all a bunch of no good scoundrels. I've never committed any of the atrocities we've been discussing, but I have my own dark corners.

Where I am now, I don't have to pretend to be perfect. No use pretending because the people I associate with aren't any better and know I'm not.

Guess where I'm going with this is that while I understand, sympathize, and empathize with your concerns regarding religion in general, they don't represent or apply to all religion. Even having no religion can be religious. There's lots of bad stuff out there, but also much that is legitimate and beneficial.

I struggled with my own bad religious experiences for a long time and continue to struggle with the abuse my son-in-law experienced. I could not, however, in good conscience encourage you to reject all religion just because there's so much bad. The answers I've found and that other forum contributors find work in our lives may not be what you want. They are, however, the best we have to offer and do so in what we truly believe to be your best interests and needs.

Do Go Be Man
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RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

IleftCSin74 — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:26:16 GMT

Sorry to come down on you so hard. I couldn't even remember the name of the camp in Missouri. Thanks to your site now I remember their name. I have a lot of buried anger towards the religion. My stepdad tried to separate his church from the abusers from his church before his death. Just a month ago my fiance's mother tried to get me to watch some video put out by some charasmatic Father who's sermon was about coming back to the Catholic Church. It did not go over too well with me, as my own mother has tried for many years to get me to come back to CS. It just shows the level of the buried animosity when it explodes out 3 to 4 decades later. I have seen many therapists for my other problems but never been successful finding a group of similarly-abused ex-CSers. And you folks are all religious folks. I have been unable to trust any religion for 35 years or more.

No hard feelings towards you or your mission. I prefer to discuss my issues free from religion. All of the pain and suffering just spills out whenever I discuss religion.

Mark

RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

IleftCSin74 — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 23:01:05 GMT

There were at least 4 different people that I knew of, between 1965 and 1974, that my mom implicitly trusted because of their connection to CS, that were involved with the molestation of male juveniles, in the area where I grew-up. I grew-up in northwest suburban Detroit, southwest of Pontiac. According to my sisters, there were other Church-affiliated and trusted people who liked to molest juvenile girls. The Franklin Meadowlake Church was a relatively small suburban church, with a onetime membership of under 200 adults. My mother has told me that the church folded some years ago. The ex-Marine (A. J. Sutherland) was the son of a longtime family friend, who currently lives in Northport, MI, on the Leelenau Peninsula. He is in his late 50s now and is a building contractor. A sister of his lives here in Longmont, CO, and a brother owns a floral shop in Royal Oak, MI, the town that I was born in. He once threatened to kill his brother over "coming out". I have told his sister here in Longmont of the abuse. Her name is Betsie Montieth. Another early abuser was Jimmy Anthony, who's parents lived on Hammond Lake near my folks. He victimized me between my age 8 & 10. They moved away and the abuse ended. Another who victimized some of the younger boys from my parent's Church was a David Leedy. He liked to take younger boys from the Church on various fun outings, and somewhat later it was discovered why he enjoyed doing so. There were others too! For whatever reason my mom believed that their church affiliation was more believeable then was her own teenage son. AJ last molested me one week before my Summer of Love trip to AU in 1972. My folks left him in charge when they went to Japan, and had previously had him sit for extended periods on several occasions. Jimmy Anthony was another babysitter with CS protection.

Despite the fact that my mother's book only says "abuse at the hands of older children of trusted family friends" her earlier edition had CS included in the line. (preface pg xvii-xviii). AJ was one of the first people to try to fight her book, even though his name was never mentioned. He denied ever abusing me later to my stepmother. It is my word against his. Boy was he worried when the 1996 first edition came out.

I don't have any names for what happened at the Cedars. I might have been age 10 or 11. The man involved was not my regular counselor. Tim Carlson died at AU during August of 1974. It was the Summer that I turned 17. I had been planning to see Tim at the end of a vacation that Summer when he got back from camp. Tim and I used to correspond via old-fashioned mail since we were in the same cabin at Sky Valley in 1972. He went back twice after I last did, and had previously climbed several 14,000 ft. peaks, including Mt. Princeton in 1972. I met with his family and my Summer of 72 girlfriend (Nancy Larsen of Westlake, OH), late in August of 1974 shortly after his death at AU. There were a couple of friends from Detroit along when I was there.

I have already addressed the problems of the sexual abuse and physical abuse I suffered within my family growing-up. The last 10 years have been great. But I still react poorly to religious questioning. I still have a deeply-rooted distrust of Church and religious figures. I went off on my girlfriend's mom when she got too pushy with her Catholic faith. That was just a month ago. There is so much buried pain in my upbringing in CS that I can't talk reasonably with my future mother-in-law about religion.

Can you figure-out a way to move my story from a private response to your member "all in one", to make it available to public viewing? My first message on your site was long and detailed. I might be able to print it or attempt to save it to Word. If I can save it to Word I can email it to you. I found your site through EXCS-UK, whom I found through Reachout Trust, also in England. My little sister, who has been to religious deprogramming, at one time.suggested the book Blue Windows to me. Finally after a couple of years of procrastinating, I made the attempt online and followed several links. Kathy at EXCS-UK has personally written me twice. I have looked for many years for a group of ex- CSers without success.

Mark

RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

Linda — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 21:52:54 GMT

IleftCSin74,

I am just coming into this discussion as I've been away from my computer all day. Welcome! I'm glad you have found us.

Some of your experiences remind me of my own:

I attended the AU camps in Colorado on 1971. (We seem to have just missed each other since you were there in 1970 and 1972!) I did the 13 day mountain climbing trip which included climbing around on some of those 14,000 ft. peaks you mentioned. It was a life-changing trip (overall for the better), although pretty challenging at the time since I couldn't get enough rest the first 10 days of the trip (couldn't get warm at night so hardly slept). One of the guys on the trip was rock climbing and fell of a cliff when he slipped and the safety rope broke. He survived with remarkably few injuries, but it has troubled me that he was taken down the hill the next day on a donkey that was brought up from the main camp. I don't know if other arrangements (like a helicopter) would have been made had his injuries been more severe.

I remember those boulder fields, as I crossed one with our group -- a tough but pretty neat experience. Like your friend, I lost my balance while climbing one of the rocks and fell backwards. Fortunately, I managed to get my arms out of my backpack so that I fell straight down rather than toppling backwards; the guy behind me was pretty impressed by my quick reflexes.:)

I don't know if I'm thinking of your friend Tim or not, but I do remember hearing that a boy died on the mountain not long after I was there (I thought it was 1972). The story I heard was that he had some kind of heart condition that his parents didn't disclose. After he died, one of the counselors picked him up and carried his body several miles back to the main AU camp. If the kid I know of wasn't Tim, then Tim's death would be the second camper to die in a couple of years (can't verify this one way or the other).

Like you, I went on an AU sponsored ski trip when I was in high school. Three of us on the trip were injured. Jan broke her foot and I badly sprained my ankle. After I was carried off the mountain and my ski boot was removed, a practitioner on the trip had me put my regular boot on and we walked (limped) up and down the mountain road while "knowing the Truth" about the situation. The pain was excruciating. Jan and I both made the several-hour bus trip home without having our feet bandaged. Another boy broke his leg and did get medical care; we heard that he went to the hospital because of his non-CS father. In all fairness to our chaperones, I'm sure they would have called my parents and even taken me to the hospital had I requested it -- but I was as caught up in trying to heal the situation as they were and it never occurred to me to call my parents. After I got home I limped around for weeks on the unwrapped ankle, trying to look like it wasn't sprained.

I never saw the type of sexual behavior you described in your camp experiences; I'm sorry to hear that you went through all that. The CS culture was promoted as very moral, and the discrepancy between that and what happened to you must have made things even worse.

RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

Do_Go_Be_Man — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 19:42:07 GMT

Mark,

[quote]How do I tell anyone my story without stepping on some unsubstantiated toes? ... Mic Hunter, a nationally-respected authority on childhood sexual abuse in Minneapolis would call you all kinds of names for questioning a 10 year-old's memories on lack of substantiation. ... Trying to deny a kid's memories on substantiation grounds is what happened to me. ... And still there are those who question a 10 year-old boy's memories?[/quote]
As I said earlier, I apologize for how the necessary disclaimer sounded to you. It's not that I'm calling your story into question or demanding substantiation. Just as talk show jocks do, when discussion gets that intense and personal readers need to be reminded that we are dealing with personal opinions and experiences. Only you and your abuser can directly speak to their validity. We each must judge for ourselves the credibility of your statements. In no way am I telling anyone to disbelieve you, however, I wasn't there and cannot speak accurately to what occurred.

As a journalist, I was trained to call all criminals "alleged" until the courts said we could call them what they were. It riled me greatly. Innocent until proven guilty is an especially difficult concept for victims. Child molesters are the worst sort of criminal and I've had to deal with some myself. Once proven such, I have very unChristian suggestions as to how to provide for their futures. Jesus made it very clear, however, what they have to anticipate - "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin." [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2017:2;&version=47;]Luke 17:2[/url].

Please let me know if I have still failed to allay your concerns regarding the need to establish an objective context for your story.

[quote]Let me ask you? Are you still a Christian Scientist? Is this site mainly designed to catch and attempt to discredit former CS members stories of abuse?[/quote]
This site is exactly what it declares itself to be. It is maintained by Christians who were CSists. We discovered the fallacy of CS and, by God's Grace, the truth of God's word. We are here to minister to CSists, those leaving CS, former CSists, and those affected by CS. Having been substantially abused by CS, we have a great shared compassion for those who were and are similarly abused.

[quote]Lack of faith caused me to suffer with athlete's foot all through childhood from the age of 7, or at least that is what my mother told me. Do you question whether this statement is substantiatable?[/quote]
Your mother was wrong. Faith has nothing to do with athlete's foot. A few smears of ointment could have killed the fungus and spared you a lot of grief. I once suffered a different manifestation of the same fungus when I was a CSist. A few squirts of Lotrimin and some clean clothes and I found relief. I felt burdensome guilt and shame, but now give thanks for the wisdom that developed the fungicide.

[quote]Well, you have a lot more information to research now. I'm sure your site has had to deal with many bitter ex- CS-types over time though. How do you handle them? Do you banish them to other sites?[/quote]
We have dealt with many bitter ex-, current, and alleged CSist types. So long as conduct themselves civilly and in line with the terms of use of the site and forum, anyone can express themselves regarding their experience with CS pretty much any way they feel compelled to do. Very few have been banned and each of them due to their conduct, not their content.

Do Go Be Man
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RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

Do_Go_Be_Man — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 15:23:03 GMT

Mark,

[quote]You and I both know that CS preaches the denial of the physical world and the perfection of the spiritual world. This denial of all things material is the foundation of my claim.[/quote]
I pray that you did not take offense at the disclaimer I provided and ask your forgiveness and understanding if you did. I truly do appreciate your contributions.

I too had altitude sickness in the Colorado mountains as a CSist. I was unconscious for three days with no medical care. I eventually revived and testified to the glory of CS, S&H, and MBE. While I suppose the CSists who were aware of my condition did their expected work/denial, I suspect now that being carried to a lower altitude had more to do with my healing. There are those who regularly visit this site that may claim I suffered irreversible brain damage as a result of that experience.

Being on a tight time crunch just now, I didn't fully read your latest post yet. If indicated, I will respond further later.

Do Go Be Man
<><

RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

IleftCSin74 — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 14:29:44 GMT

Tim Carlson of Westlake, OH died of high-altitude sickness trying to scale one of the 14,000 ft peaks behind the AU camp in August of 1974. He was participating in a camp-sponsored activity. There was no emergency oxygen brought along on the hike despite a Colorado State law mandating such a practice. It is my own rationale as to why the camp didn't bring an emergency oxygen supply along. You and I both know that CS preaches the denial of the physical world and the perfection of the spiritual world. This denial of all things material is the foundation of my claim. Taking an emergency oxygen supply along on a hike to over 14,000 ft. elevation would be in essence believing that you might need to admit that a physical ailment was a possibility. Even I had my troubles with the altitude in 1970 trying to climb Mt. Elbert (14,432 ft), and in 1972 trying to climb Mt. Princeton (over 14,000 ft.). I was unable to complete the first climb despite being called many names by the camp staff, and I did complete the latter climb. In the latter climb I saved another camper from likely serious injury after our camp staff lost the trail and forced us to climb a boulder field at high altitude. This camper lost his balance and fell backwards off of a 5 ft diameter boulder, and I caught him. What more can I say. He might have fallen backwards 5 to 10 ft in an area where only a helicopter evac would have saved a long delay reaching any medical care. I guess the camp got lucky that day. I guess it was just bad luck that Tim died in their care. High-altitude sickness is nothing new. The Colorado ski industry knew about it 30 or more years before Tim died. There were some good times at the AU camps and some things that I wish that I could forget.

As to my claims about the Cedars. I was 10 or 11 when this incident happened. There were at least 25 or 30 boys involved in the skinny-dipping incident. And at least one other in the molestation incident. It is interesting that when my mom first published her book entitled "Healing, a Spitirtual Perspective", one of the first people to threaten a lawsuit over being included without permission, though he wasn't specifically named, was the CS ex-Marine who molested me from 1970 to 1972. At the time he had threatened to kill me if I ever told anyone. His threat was very believable as he was many times as strong as I was and bragged about killing the Cong with his bare hands. How do I tell anyone my story without stepping on some unsubstantiated toes? Have you ever taken a 200-mile bus ride with some luckless victim of CS radical reliance screaming on every bump? And this was after my own experience with setting a bone in the ER at Pontiac General Hospital in Pontiac, MI, in the first week of January, 1970. That incident shouldn't be too hard to find though it could go either way with the ER doctor, if he is still alive. The CS-sponsored ski trip was when I was age 15, to what was then called Bear Mountain Ski Area in Grayling, MI. We left from our church at the time, Franklin-Meadowlake, at Maple (15 Mile Road) and Inkster Rd, in western Birmingham, MI, sometime the Winter of 1972-73. The luckless kid that had to suffer through 200+ miles of torture at the hands of his CS protectors was from that church. That narrows it way, way down. No, I don't know the name of the man who molested me at the Cedars. He was not my regular counselor at the time. Mic Hunter, a nationally-respected authority on childhood sexual abuse in Minneapolis would call you all kinds of names for questioning a 10 year-old's memories on lack of substantiation. I was his patient at one time. Here in Denver, Jeffrey Casebolt is another well-respected authority on the subject. Trying to deny a kid's memories on substantiation grounds is what happened to me. That is why this problem wasn't dealt with from the start. I did tell my mother, who beat the *** out of me, allegedly for lying about someone from the Church. I learned that anyone from the Church was above the law, and that I had better stay silent. Staying silent had it's own set of consequences though: Out-of-control illegal drug and alcohol use, terminally-low self esteem, loss of trust of religion and authority figures, etc. It took many years of counseling and two trips to Hazelden to get to where I'm at. And still there are those who question a 10 year-old boy's memories?

Let me ask you? Are you still a Christian Scientist? Is this site mainly designed to catch and attempt to discredit former CS members stories of abuse? There is a site in Minneapolis that is a little closer to my own beliefs. It is a site about Atheists. I have met a couple of the people on the site years ago following treatment at Hazelden. Their site is for the promotion of non- religious ideas. They have a couple of ex- CSers there with stories like mine. I wish that I had more faith in your motives. Lack of faith caused me to suffer with athlete's foot all through childhood from the age of 7, or at least that is what my mother told me. Do you question whether this statement is substantiatable? Will she admit saying that now, 43 years later? Probably not. Would someone at the Cedars admit that they knew or found-out later that they had employed a sexual predator as a counselor back in 1968 or 1969? Get real. I never even knew his name, just have the memories. I remember jumping on the trampoline there too, and I remember going into some caves rather ill-equipped, and I remember some fat kid getting stuck in the cave. It was a painful experience getting him out. I wonder if they would know when they had to get the fat kid rescued out of the cave because my molestation occured at about the same time. Then there is the "great Chief" who's fire wouldn't start despite all of the gasoline. I cut the power cord with my Cub Scout knife. I must say that he looked rather silly when the fire wouldn't start. That happened within one week of my molestation there. I'm sure that the "great Chief" would remember his fire not starting.

Well, you have a lot more information to research now. I'm sure your site has had to deal with many bitter ex- CS-types over time though. How do you handle them? Do you banish them to other sites? Please read my full story, which I accidentally sent on a private basis to "all in one". I thought that it was being sent to all. I first met Kathy at EXCS-UK. Her story has many similarities to my own story. I even got an email all the way back from Great Britain. She never questioned my story. She knew all too well what I had gone through in the name of MBE and CS. As for the case of Tim at AU, I met with Tim's parents and with my former girlfriend of the Summer of 1972 at AU, in Westlake, OH, just a couple of weeks after his death, and found-out all of the details then. I know way more about it then you do. Do you think that anyone currently at AU will divulge any details or remember much? It's been 34 years since their lack of respect for law concerning juvenile campers and emergency oxygen policies at high altitudes cost Tim his life. Tim would have lived if State law was followed. I wonder if they carry emergency oxygen now and what made them change their minds about doing so? I'll bet that they wouldn't be willing to discuss the origination of their high altitude emergency oxygen policy though.

Mark (new)

RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

Do_Go_Be_Man — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 10:56:45 GMT

ILeftCSin74,

I do not want to necessarily imply that your stories of abuse are exaggerated. As co-moderator of the forum, however, I feel that I should point out they represent your point of view and not necessarily those of the forum host, moderators, or other participants.

Hope you understand that without independent corroboration, we need to caution that your representation of your experiences are not typical of the camps.

Do Go Be Man
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RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

IleftCSin74 — Mon, 14 Apr 2008 04:40:31 GMT

I went to the Cedars twice. It must have been 1967 and 1968 or 1969. I got molested there by a counselor in my cabin, one night. The same guy had all of us boys skinny-dip while he watched. I might have been 10 or 11 years old. I know why the firepit didn't start despite all of the gasoline. (There was no power to ignite the gasoline). That will teach you to molest 11 year-old boys under the guise of a CS camp counselor.

I went to AU twice too. It must have been the summers of 1970 & 1972. (1972 was the summer of Love). We made love on the bus all the way from Toledo. The chaperones sat in the front at the bottom of the stairs, and us kids made love way in the back of the bus upstairs. It was my first time with the opposite sex, though it wasn't my first time. That honor goes to some CS babysitter at the age of 8.

AU killed a friend of mine. The summer of 1974 the camp forgot to bring an emergency oxygen supply on a hike to a 14,000 ft. peak. Tim was from the Cleveland, OH.-area, 13,000 ft. lower. It was a CO State law, but I know that the mere act of carrying an emergency oxygen supply would be like admitting that there is such a thing as high-altitude sickness, and that would be "against our religion". One thing is for sure: By the time someone got back with the emergency oxygen, Tim was gone. It should have been "reckless endangerment" and manslaughter, but Tim's parents refused to file a lawsuit. They claimed that his death was an act of God.

There was lots to be proud of at CS summer camps! I still remember my first girlfriend's name 36 years later. She lived right down the street from my friend Tim. Nothing like forced skinny-dipping with a couple of adult males leering at you when you are 11 years old. I went to a YMCA camp in Michigan and the worst thing that ever happened there was a little bullying. I can still remember taking a Church-sponsored ski trip to a ski area about 200 miles from home in 1972, and riding all the way back in the bus with some kid that had broken his leg. Every bump in the road there was an anguished scream from the back of the bus, as the chaperones had provided their best customary level of treatment in his case too. I wonder if that kid is still alive today, and what his feelings towards the Church are, etc. It was like my trip to the ER at age 12, but several times worse. Pain medication is "against our religion", my mom told the ER doctor. And this kid got none either.

Mark, from Franklin Meadowlake, a dead CS church if there ever was one. Whatever happened to all of those people who used to attend there back in the 60s, when it was brand-new? I know why I quit going there.

RE: Cedars Camp Alumni

Linda — Wed, 01 Aug 2007 20:15:16 GMT

Hi Jill,

No, I didn't attend the Cedars camp. I did spend a few weeks at the Adventure Unlimited camps in Colorado in about 1971. Did you enjoy your visits to Cedars?

Cedars Camp Alumni

Jill in Michigan — Tue, 31 Jul 2007 20:59:25 GMT

Are there any alumni here? I was there form 1974-1980.

jill