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Anonymous — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 08:54:49 GMT

Do Go,

Well again, I don't really find the cultural lacunae in the practice of CS or any other religion very interesting to get into. The interest is in the texts and what they do or don't say. I don't recall MBE discouraging anyone from studying the original biblical languages, and indeed there are a reasonable number of CS people who have.

Those are the kinds of choices people make when they go to college, though there are usually ways to catch up later if one has the time and commitment. (I'm really reminding myself here...)

I'm not exactly sure what you mean that MBE should have provided proof texts. Do you mean in the original languages? I think that would probably have gone down like a rat sandwich with the average Joe in Peoria at the time ;-)

Having said that, MBE gives copious references to the Bible in her writings, normally with chapter and verse though not always. I don't agree that she encouraged study of S&H more than of the Bible. She regarded them as inseparable.

The belief that the Bible is not inerrant is not peculiar to Mary Baker Eddy. It is a commonplace of mainstream (non-fundamentalist) theology. and has been for many years as far as I know.

Erol

<< Erol,

NB Christian Science Reading Rooms usually contain "standard" Bible reference books such as Smith's Bible Dictionary, Dummelow, Peake, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance etc., and have done so for as long as I remember.

A great regret I have regarding being raised in the CS Sunday School is the limited exposure I had to Bible translations other than the King James (certainly a great translation in its time). I especially regret having not been exposed to the concept of original languages when I had the time and resources to study them. Given the CSists in my community and their Bible education, I should have been exposed to a higher rather than normal or lower level of sensitivity to such matters.

Smith's Bible Dictionary was the source of MBE's statement regarding the errors in the Bible (I need to look, but I think Smith referred to translations rather than the original texts). I still have my Dummelow and Cruden's, but Strong's was just a shelf book to which people referred almost as a status symbol, but did not use.

The problem with the CS obsession with CS literature is that most CSists in my experience (remember that is pretty broad) look on CS literature as a primary source with the Bible and its related resources as secondary at best.

As I've said many times before, MBE would have done well to have provided Scriptural proof texts in her writings and to have encouraged scholarly study of the Bible, especially of the original texts. Even today, the CS Publishing Society could do that and increase S&H sales at least for a time (if they do, I'd want credit on the title page). Instead, she chose to position the Bible as erroneous and provided her own corrections. She encouraged study of S&H far more strongly than study of the Bible. She spoke in far more favorable terms of the perfection of S&H than she spoke of the Bible. I suppose, however, that was natural given that S&H represented the differentiator of CS.

Do Go Be Man
<>< >>

Do_Go_Be_Man — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 07:33:46 GMT

Erol,

NB Christian Science Reading Rooms usually contain "standard" Bible reference books such as Smith's Bible Dictionary, Dummelow, Peake, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance etc., and have done so for as long as I remember.

A great regret I have regarding being raised in the CS Sunday School is the limited exposure I had to Bible translations other than the King James (certainly a great translation in its time). I especially regret having not been exposed to the concept of original languages when I had the time and resources to study them. Given the CSists in my community and their Bible education, I should have been exposed to a higher rather than normal or lower level of sensitivity to such matters.

Smith's Bible Dictionary was the source of MBE's statement regarding the errors in the Bible (I need to look, but I think Smith referred to translations rather than the original texts). I still have my Dummelow and Cruden's, but Strong's was just a shelf book to which people referred almost as a status symbol, but did not use.

The problem with the CS obsession with CS literature is that most CSists in my experience (remember that is pretty broad) look on CS literature as a primary source with the Bible and its related resources as secondary at best.

As I've said many times before, MBE would have done well to have provided Scriptural proof texts in her writings and to have encouraged scholarly study of the Bible, especially of the original texts. Even today, the CS Publishing Society could do that and increase S&H sales at least for a time (if they do, I'd want credit on the title page). Instead, she chose to position the Bible as erroneous and provided her own corrections. She encouraged study of S&H far more strongly than study of the Bible. She spoke in far more favorable terms of the perfection of S&H than she spoke of the Bible. I suppose, however, that was natural given that S&H represented the differentiator of CS.

Do Go Be Man
<><

Anonymous — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 06:30:26 GMT

For a wonderfully erudite book on Christian Science with broad literary and philosophical references, I couldn't do better than recommend Robert Peel's three-volume biography of Mary Baker Eddy.

Christian Scientists who read only the Bible and CS literature, are no different than other Christians who read only the Bible and fundamentalist literature, or Muslims who read only the Koran for that matter. Which is not to say that such a limited culture should be encouraged.

I got into some fascinating reading (inclucing Dostoyevsky etc. on the phenomenon of evil) after reading Peel. I'm sure others have had a similar experience. Anyway I can't recommend him too highly.

NB Christian Science Reading Rooms usually contain "standard" Bible reference books such as Smith's Bible Dictionary, Dummelow, Peake, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance etc., and have done so for as long as I remember.

Erol

Priscilla — Mon, 14 Aug 2006 17:53:26 GMT

<< He now loves the Lord and serves Him fully. Peace be with you. >> >>

Camille,
That is an odd expression now that I look at it. He is now in full-time ministry as a pastor.
Priscilla

Spring — Sun, 13 Aug 2006 07:34:32 GMT

Camille,

Not sure if they read other Christian literature, but I am positive many of them read fiction, biographies and legal or other literature that's been related to their jobs. I know that many of the local church members consulted bible commentaries, lacking "approvel" commentaries, especially in German, they went for what they thought was best suited.

It would never have occurred to me that I should stop reading other than CS literature - if that request had been made, I'm sure I'd turned my back on CS immediately - it's just that general understanding was we should not try to learn CS from other than approved CS literature.

Marion

Anonymous — Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:34:11 GMT

<< Camille,

To my experience the CS church had an unusually high number of members holding university degrees - as such reading only religious literature was no question.

Marion >>

Hello Marion,
Do you mean they did not exclusively read cs literature?
Camille

Anonymous — Sat, 12 Aug 2006 14:33:15 GMT

<< He now loves the Lord and serves Him fully. Peace be with you. >>

Hello Priscilla,

Can you explain to me what you mean by 'serving the Lord fully"?

thanks
Camille

Priscilla — Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:55:55 GMT

Hi SurferforJesus,
I have a practical idea for you. Perhaps your wife would consider spending time with you (or you and your children) reading the Bible. There are many lists available that allow you to read the entire Bible in a year. Perhaps it could be a challenge for your whole family. She may be comfortable only reading a King James and that is fine. If she would consider a version that might be more helpful to your children's understanding, God's Word is good. (I think they even have one divided up that way) Pray and see if God leads you to suggest it.
Just a reminder for you, the fight has never been yours. It is the Lord's and you have put it in the right place. It took my husband 15 years. He now loves the Lord and serves Him fully. Peace be with you.

Spring — Sat, 12 Aug 2006 08:10:32 GMT

Camille,

To my experience the CS church had an unusually high number of members holding university degrees - as such reading only religious literature was no question.

Marion

Anonymous — Sat, 12 Aug 2006 05:28:03 GMT

Hi Linda,

I grew up in a very small town. So small I wonder how it even had a cs church.
None of the cs I ever knew was intellectually inclined.
When I moved to large city I found the cs church members the same.

I am glad you had a different experience. It always seemed to me cs should be broad in scope and curious in range of subjects.

My take on the exclusive focus of reading cs literature: it is the attempt to be in the world but not of it. Not taking in too much of the material world in any area as a way of trying to transcend it. Although I don't think that is consistent with some of mbe writings regarding translating matter into Spirit and the human and divine coincidence, I think it is an orientation I had without being aware of it.

Although as a cs I thought cs was the final word on God and man, almost every religious person across the board I have met has thought and felt the same way about their own beliefs. So I am not sure if cs are unique on that point.

But my understanding of religious addiction would include behavior like only reading religious literature.
I always try to keep in mind what drives addiction is often desperation. If the underlying emotional content is dealt with the addiction can lose its hold.

Camille

Camille

Linda — Fri, 11 Aug 2006 22:05:07 GMT

Camille,

That's interesting. I would have to say the opposite -- that I knew a lot of intellectual and interesting people in CS. My dad's Naval career took us to lots of churches , and many of our CS friends were very intelligent people who were involved in stimulating and often impressive jobs. Attending Principia put me in contact with a lot of really interesting CS professors. Overall, I have always considered CSists to be a pretty intellectual bunch. Ignorant regarding their bodies and often a bit out of touch emotionally, but creative and intellectual in many ways.

Anonymous — Fri, 11 Aug 2006 13:55:24 GMT

<< Spring makes a good point that, since CS is considered superior, it would seem pointless to read Christian literature that wasn't based in CS.

>>

Linda,
I think many of the cs I knew were not particularly intellectually enlived people ---about world events, literature, arts, politics, period...
I am not sure it is because cs think they are superior to any and all contributions of science, literature, arts as well as religion.
I guess it could be. But it could also be a case of the circles I ran in. Not intellectually curious people.I don't think I can generalize to all cs in that regards.
Camille

Linda — Fri, 11 Aug 2006 12:08:30 GMT

Spring makes a good point that, since CS is considered superior, it would seem pointless to read Christian literature that wasn't based in CS.

When I was in CS, people were only supposed to read "authorized" CS literature, -- material that had been OK'd by the CS Church. The Church suppressed writings that it did not approve of (including Dickey's memoirs that MBE made him promise to write -- they reveal a lot about life within MBE's household and, my guess is, did not fit the image that the Church was trying to portray). Some of these writings were made available by CS "dissidents" who felt that these materials should be available. The CS Church has relaxed a bit regarding these formerly-supressed materials and has even made some of them available through the MBE Library. I suspect that much of this relaxation has had to to with the fact that the materials had become available anyway.

In recent years the Sentinel has had interviews with non-CS Christians like Philip Yancey (author of books like "The Jesus I Niever Knew"). I assume that interviewing non-CS authors would make CSists more likely to read what they have written -- I don't know if this is the case but it would make sense. However, if I were still CS I would probably spend most of the time reading "spiritually mature" CS authors rather than "less spiritually mature" authors like Philip Yancey.

Spring — Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:23:54 GMT

SurferforJesus,

It may be for the best that you don't have any time to fight about religion; I believe that praying for your wife is the very best thing you can do and leave it in the hands of our Lord. He knows your wife, and He's got a billion ways to change her heart. When I was a CSist, Christian friends prayed for me for years - didn't do anything but pray and invite me to events of their bible school and never said a word when I was too busy to accept. And the Lord did find a way to my heart. In my instance, He opened my eyes to differences between the bible and s&h ...

I believe it's very common for CSists to focus on reading whatever material TMC provides - it's a lot and if you want to do all the reading, you're quite busy already. And as CS is considered superior, why bother with other "conservative" Christian literature - I did read other Christian literature because I craved something solid which discussed bible chapters etc. and I found both Sentinel and Journal to be rather "boring".

Anonymous — Fri, 11 Aug 2006 10:10:42 GMT

<<
As you know my lovely and loving wife is CS and so I know about CS through my exposure to her. One thing I notice is this obsession with CS literature. All she reads is the Sentinel, S & H, the Monitor and anything coming out of the Publishing Society. I tried to get her to read Mere Christianity to no avail, which in my view is Christianity 101.

Is this typical behavior? I mean this woman has never read anything else since I married her 13 years ago. I just wonder if it is typical or atypical of CS people in general. SurferforJesus >>

Hey Surfer.
In my experience it is very typical of the cs I knew and observed closely for 50 years.
I cannot think of anything official coming from tmc dictating limited selective choice of literature in general.
After college I personally read very little else until I broke out of my cs mental box.

One of the traps I think one can get into when adopting any social, political or religious belief system is you tend to read what reinforces it not what challenges it. I tend to be fairly conservative politically yet I read across the spectrum from ultra left to ultra right wing. Now that I have been mentally liberated from the 'thought box' I was in I truly enjoy challenging my opinions and being open and aggressive about pursuing knowledge and news and others differing opinions. My opinions can change with new views and information from the distillation of complex geo-political issues by brilliant analysts and thinkers.

Religious beliefs may not be totally analogous with political orientations.

I made an extensive study of all major world religions after leaving cs.
I wasn't sure I was technically even a 'Christian' ie adopting dogma, values and beliefs all on faith and my relationship with Jesus Christ at that time.

You know you have to be careful when throwing stones if you live in a glass house as they say.
I wonder how many people on this forum have read the Koran, Bhagavad-Gita, Upanishads, Torah, Rigveda or investigated or studied Buddhist or Hindu practices?

My guess would be most born again Christians read Christian literature that resonates with their own interpretations of the Bible.

I think you have made a good choice for harmony in your household rather than trying to change your wife.
Praying for open hearts and minds is a good place to rest.
Camille

Anonymous — Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:57:54 GMT

Not sure if I made sense on my second sentence - could do with some editing - however hope the reader understands.

Jan

Anonymous — Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:55:57 GMT

Marketing operates on the same principles. The user or customer becomes hypnotised to accept what is being sold by continually advertising its product. Organised religion is no different.

Cheers
Jan

Do_Go_Be_Man — Fri, 11 Aug 2006 07:13:37 GMT

SurferforJesus,

Is this typical behavior?

Yes, it is typical CS behavior. While perhaps not explicit, the culture does implicitly discourage other literature such as CS Lewis.

According to communication theories as old as Aristotle, such discouragement can be an effective means of ensuring control of the beliefs and behavior.

Do Go Be Man
<><

CS obsession with CS Literature

Anonymous — Fri, 11 Aug 2006 06:16:54 GMT

Hi all...SurferforJesus here long time no post. I hope your summer is treating you well and our Lord is holding you in the palm of his hand as the old Irish Prayer says...

A question.

As you know my lovely and loving wife is CS and so I know about CS through my exposure to her. One thing I notice is this obsession with CS literature. All she reads is the Sentinel, S & H, the Monitor and anything coming out of the Publishing Society. I tried to get her to read Mere Christianity to no avail, which in my view is Christianity 101.

Is this typical behavior? I mean this woman has never read anything else since I married her 13 years ago. I just wonder if it is typical or atypical of CS people in general.

BTW...if you were wondering how I am doing.... here is the update... I am fine, but I have given up the fight. I have two kids to raise and a start up business to manage.. I have no energy to fight. So, I pray daily ( in my case the rosary) that the Holy Spirit will find an opening in her heart to show her Christ's truth. I ask forgiveness for my sins and for hers and thank God for his blessings. But I cannot fight about religion and keep a happy household. I am in a no win situation with that and put myself in God's hands.

Nice to see new people posting ......your ex CS stories are tragic and I pray for your recovery.

God Bless and thanks for your responses.

SurferforJesus