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RE: Is Prayer Pointless?

zoarean — Wed, 23 May 2007 00:01:14 GMT

This doctrine further reinforces the Reformist view of salvation by faith, for we can only believe as God's Spirit enables us to believe:

"For I say, through the grace given to me, to everyone who is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, as God has dealt to each one a measure of faith." Romans 12:3

So we see that our measure of faith is only ours by means of impartation from above.

zoarean

RE: Is Prayer Pointless?

zoarean — Tue, 22 May 2007 23:36:10 GMT

Do Go Be Man,

I consider myself somewhat of a "maverick" or "backdoor" Calvinist- meaning I've found myself accepting each of the Five Points more as a consequence of indirect & independent Biblical exegesis than from a focused study of Calvinist logic. Calvinism is logical, but so are many other things, including James Arminius' contrary "Five Points of Arminianism." Reason & logic should never form the backbone of our doctrine; these can lead us astray, just as easily as men & tradition. This is why God has preserved His Word down through the ages.

Inasmuch as I have this perspective, I sometimes find myself having views that may seem, on the surface, to be opposed to Calvinist logic. One of these views is my belief in man's free will- within the realm of God's will.

You said:

"Did I exchange my parent's will for my own? ... or did we each seek a common will?"

It would seem by this statement that you also ascribe to the notion that our free will operates within the umbrella of God's sovereign will.

I differ from pure Calvinism, in that I believe that we do "choose" Him- though only after our eyes have been opened to receive faith in the reality of Heaven & Hell & the salvation of Jesus Christ alone.

I formerly believed in CS because of the anecdotal evidence- principally the healings. But when God began to inundate me with contrary evidence, that CS was in fact not Scriptural, I lost my faith in it. The Gospels filled me with doubt concerning CS as I read them in exegetical fashion for the first time in my life. I remember the point that I left CS- when I read the explicit description of a real place called Hell detailed in Luke 16.

God's Spirit had brought me to the place where I truly believed in the reality of Hell. Soon afterwards, He also caused me understand the salvation from this place that Jesus the Christ offers. After this, my "choice" was obvious.

You said:

"As time went on, I learned for myself the benefits of being careful around stoves and street crossings."

You learned, & believed, in the true dangers of stoves & street crossings & thereafter acted accordingly. I'm sure after this point in your life you don't deliberate- "Should I touch the hot stove or not?" "Should I step in front of the speeding car or not?" Because of your newfound understanding your everyday choice is an obvious one; nevertheless it is still your choice.

I believe our acceptance of Christ depends first & foremost on His choice of us. (His election, as Scripture puts it.) He sovereignly chooses us- and as your loving parents did, He imparts both understanding & faith in the realities of both life & death to us. After this, the "decision" is both instinctive & clear.

zoarean

RE: Is Prayer Pointless?

Do_Go_Be_Man — Tue, 22 May 2007 18:13:51 GMT

Anonymous 5/17/2007 10:08:39 PM,

As you haven't responded, I don't know if you're still out there.

Omnipotence and omniscience would appear to be incompatible with free will. You're right people do make choices. Free will is one of those topics on which Christians sometimes do not agree. One reason is the lack of a common sense of what free will is.

That God knows what our choices will be does not preclude a concept of free will. God knows we will sin, yet loves us anyway. He knows we will reject His love, yet freely offers it anyway.

Yet there is something that draws us to Him even if we don't recognize it. God knows our needs and our wants better than we know them ourselves. So, as you ask, why pray?

There are many purposes to prayer including (note the useful acronym):

[li]Adoration[/li]
[li]Confession[/li]
[li]Thanksgiving[/li]
[li]Supplication[/li]

We serve and worship God in our prayers. We acknowledge our need for Him. We give thanks to Him for all that He is and does. We ask Him to be with us and to fulfill our needs.

Prayer enables us to communicate with God and for Him to communicate with us as we seek His will. Prayer enables us to turn from our own will to His. Prayer enables us to know that God is in control.

Some denominations claim that free will is essential to salvation. They say that God looks down through the tunnel of time and sees those who will choose Him. Problem is that without salvation, we are dead in our sins, incapable of choose to save ourselves much less act to do so. Thus, in some regard, free will is an illusion.

Ever tried to exercise your free will to not breath? Hold your breath for as long as you can. At some point within less than 4 minutes (likely 1 minute). You will have no freedom in your will to not breath. You may claim that breathing is not an act of will. Perhaps that's debatable, but I find prayer and communing with God as essential as breathing. That is one way I know the efficacy and necessity for prayer.

Ever tried to explain the color blue? You could describe the part of the visible spectrum it occupies. You can list things that are blue. You can tell someone how you feel when you see blue. Eventually, however, you just have to say that if you don't understand blue that you can only do so through experiencing blue.

No, I can't explain the connections between free will, prayer, omniscience, and omnipotence. I can tell you that I have experienced it. I have seen things happen that were totally outside my control or anyone else's change in accord with my prayers and those of others. Do I claim to have influenced God? I don't have the ego to understand that (though there are probably those who would disagree).

As a child, my parents and other adults did things for me that I did not understand. They discouraged me from touching hot stoves. They gave me wonderful presents and many hugs. As a willful child, did I understand how and why I got my hand slapped for reaching for a hot pan or why I received the gifts I did? Nope.

As time went on, I learned for myself the benefits of being careful around stoves and street crossings. I also began to be able to tell my parents what I wanted for Christmas and birthdays (I never did get that helicopter I wanted, but did usually get something I wanted). Did I exchange my parent's will for my own? ... or did we each seek a common will?

God knows my will and how flawed it is. I pray that with His help, I will seek His will as my own.

Do Go Be Man
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RE: Is Prayer Pointless?

Linda — Fri, 18 May 2007 06:56:30 GMT

Before I address your questions -- I'm wondering if you have children. I think the concepts of free will and prayer make a lot more sense if one has children, and I'd like to know where you're coming from.

Anonymous — Sun, 15 Oct 2006 02:45:46 GMT

My last post on this thread contained a type I made in the quote from MBE. Below is the corrected version.

Erol

<< Hello Dave,

Your objection is an understandable one, but it is completely answered by Mary Baker Eddy as follows:

"Prayer cannot change the Science of being, but it tends to bring us into harmony with it. Goodness attains the demonstration of Truth....The mere habit of pleading with the divine Mind, as one pleads with a human being, perpetuates the belief in God as humanly circumscribed,--an error which impedes spiritual growth.
"God is Love. Can we ask Him to be more? God is intelligence. Can we inform the infinite Mind of anything He does not already comprehend? Do we expect to change perfection? Shall we plead for more at the open fount, which is pouring forth more than we accept?....
"Asking God to *be* God is a vain repetition. God is 'the same yesterday, and to-day, and forever;' and He who is immutably right will do right without being reminded of His province. The wisdom of man is not sufficient to warrant him in advising God.
"Who would stand before a blackboard, and pray the principle of mathematics to solve the problem? The rule is already established, and it is our task to work out the solution. Shall we ask the divine Principle of all goodness to do His own work? His work is done..." (*Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures*, pp. 2-3.)

Prayer as taught by Christian Science is like wiping clean a clouded window to let the sun shine through. The window might be compared to human consciousness, and the sun to God's healing power. Cleaning the window does not make the sun shine through it, but it allows us to see the light more clearly. Similarly, prayer does not cause God's love to shine forth, since it is already doing so; but it allows us to see it more clearly in our experience and to adjust the discord, that has appeared to human sense. That adjustment is called healing.

Another analogy might be tuning a radio station that is out of tune. Doing so doesn't make the music we are trying to listen to any better than it already was, but it allows us to hear it more clearly. Similarly, prayer enables us to perceive more clearly the underlying perfection of God's creation (the Kingdom of Heaven in biblical terms) and the result is healing.

Erol

<< It is common practice among Christians to pray for people who are sick or are in need. Suppose that a few Christians know a boy who has cancer. The disease is inoperable and untreatable in this case, so our Christian friends pray for the boy. A few weeks later, the boy dies. This is a familiar scenario which is often encountered in the creationist world. One can't help but wonder why the praying didn't work. Was the boy a sinner, and therefore deserved to die? Did his friends simply not pray hard enough? Probably not. The explanation that most Christians use is that it was not God's will for the boy to live. In other words, written in God's big book of how things are going to happen, Timmy is supposed to reach the end of the line at such and such date. At first glance, this seems to make sense. For whatever mysterious reason, it was the boy's time to go, and because of that, no amount of prayers could change it. Most Christians agree to this reasoning.

But let's back up a bit here. We said that no amount of prayers could change the outcome of the boy with cancer situation because it is God's will that the boy die. This actually says a lot more than you might think. This means that we can't change something that is in God's plan. If God wants the boy to die, then he is going to die. Doesn't this make praying pointless? Doesn't this mean that you can't change what God is going to do, so it doesn't matter if you pray or not? At this point of the argument, most Christians tell me that prayer convinces God to change his mind about his divine plan. Here, I would like to take a small detour to prove that God cannot change his mind, due to the fact that he is perfect. The reason is simply this: there is always a best choice in any situation. For someone to change their mind, they have to deem their new choice better than their old one. Suppose, for example, that God thought that one plus one equals three. God then changes his mind to thinking that one plus one equals two. This situation is impossible because for God to change his mind to the best choice (one plus one equals two), he must have previously had a worse choice. This math situation cannot happen because God must be wrong in the first place. For him to change to thinking that one plus one equals two, he must first think that one plus one equals something else, which is wrong. God is never wrong, remember? He always knows the best choice, because he is omniscient. God always selects the best choice from the start. As a result, God can never change his mind. Granted, sometimes the best choice is only slightly better than the other choice, but it doesn't matter. All questions have a best answer. It is impossible to calculate the best answer to a question for us because we must look at every single tiny effect on everything else, but for an omniscient god, this is no difficult task at all. God always makes the best choice, because he is never wrong. Every choice he makes is perfect -- there is no better choice. Now, let's get back to the original argument.

I made that point to show that God cannot change his mind. The relevance to the argument is that God cannot be convinced to make a different choice. So let's get this straight: if God's plan is set in place, and God's mind is set in place, then how can prayer change anything? There exist two kinds of situations: (1) someone prays for something that is not according to God's plan, and (2) someone prays for something that is according to God's plan. As we've just discussed, praying for something that is not according to his plan is pointless, because we can't change his mind about anything, and what God wants to do is already set in place. The second situation, where someone prays for something that is according to God's plan, is equally pointless. If something is according to God's plan prior to the prayer, then it is going to happen regardless of whether you pray for it or not. If God wants some kid with cancer to live, then praying for him is pointless because before you even kneel down in front of your bed or in your church, God has already decided that the boy will live. What's the point of praying for something that is going to happen anyway? It's like praying for the law of gravity. It's going to happen anyway, so why pray for it? In both of the situations, prayer is pointless.

Either your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.

-Dave >>

>>

Anonymous — Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:27:03 GMT

Hello Dave,

Your objection is an understandable one, but it is completely answered by Mary Baker Eddy as follows:

"Prayer cannot change the Science of being, but it tends to bring us into harmony with it. Goodness attains the demonstration of Truth....The mere habit of pleading with the divine Mind, as one pleads with a human being, perpetuates the belief in God as human circumscribed,--an error which impedes spiritual growth.
"God is Love. Can we ask Him to be more? God is intelligence. Can we inform the infinite Mind of anything He does not already comprehend? Do we expect to change perfection? Shall we plead for more at the open fount, which is pouring forth more than we accept?....
"Asking God to *be* God is a vain repetition. God is 'the same yesterday, and to-day, and forever;' and He who is immutably right will do right without being reminded of His province. The wisdom of man is not sufficient to warrant him in advising God.
"Who would stand before a blackboard, and pray the principle of mathematics to solve the problem? The rule is already established, and it is our task to work out the solution. Shall we ask the divine Principle of all goodness to do His own work? His work is done..." (*Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures*, pp. 2-3.)

Prayer as taught by Christian Science is like wiping clean a clouded window to let the sun shine through. The window might be compared to human consciousness, and the sun to God's healing power. Cleaning the window does not make the sun shine through it, but it allows us to see the light more clearly. Similarly, prayer does not cause God's love to shine forth, since it is already doing so; but it allows us to see it more clearly in our experience and to adjust the discord, that has appeared to human sense. That adjustment is called healing.

Another analogy might be tuning a radio station that is out of tune. Doing so doesn't make the music we are trying to listen to any better than it already was, but it allows us to hear it more clearly. Similarly, prayer enables us to perceive more clearly the underlying perfection of God's creation (the Kingdom of Heaven in biblical terms) and the result is healing.

Erol

<< It is common practice among Christians to pray for people who are sick or are in need. Suppose that a few Christians know a boy who has cancer. The disease is inoperable and untreatable in this case, so our Christian friends pray for the boy. A few weeks later, the boy dies. This is a familiar scenario which is often encountered in the creationist world. One can't help but wonder why the praying didn't work. Was the boy a sinner, and therefore deserved to die? Did his friends simply not pray hard enough? Probably not. The explanation that most Christians use is that it was not God's will for the boy to live. In other words, written in God's big book of how things are going to happen, Timmy is supposed to reach the end of the line at such and such date. At first glance, this seems to make sense. For whatever mysterious reason, it was the boy's time to go, and because of that, no amount of prayers could change it. Most Christians agree to this reasoning.

But let's back up a bit here. We said that no amount of prayers could change the outcome of the boy with cancer situation because it is God's will that the boy die. This actually says a lot more than you might think. This means that we can't change something that is in God's plan. If God wants the boy to die, then he is going to die. Doesn't this make praying pointless? Doesn't this mean that you can't change what God is going to do, so it doesn't matter if you pray or not? At this point of the argument, most Christians tell me that prayer convinces God to change his mind about his divine plan. Here, I would like to take a small detour to prove that God cannot change his mind, due to the fact that he is perfect. The reason is simply this: there is always a best choice in any situation. For someone to change their mind, they have to deem their new choice better than their old one. Suppose, for example, that God thought that one plus one equals three. God then changes his mind to thinking that one plus one equals two. This situation is impossible because for God to change his mind to the best choice (one plus one equals two), he must have previously had a worse choice. This math situation cannot happen because God must be wrong in the first place. For him to change to thinking that one plus one equals two, he must first think that one plus one equals something else, which is wrong. God is never wrong, remember? He always knows the best choice, because he is omniscient. God always selects the best choice from the start. As a result, God can never change his mind. Granted, sometimes the best choice is only slightly better than the other choice, but it doesn't matter. All questions have a best answer. It is impossible to calculate the best answer to a question for us because we must look at every single tiny effect on everything else, but for an omniscient god, this is no difficult task at all. God always makes the best choice, because he is never wrong. Every choice he makes is perfect -- there is no better choice. Now, let's get back to the original argument.

I made that point to show that God cannot change his mind. The relevance to the argument is that God cannot be convinced to make a different choice. So let's get this straight: if God's plan is set in place, and God's mind is set in place, then how can prayer change anything? There exist two kinds of situations: (1) someone prays for something that is not according to God's plan, and (2) someone prays for something that is according to God's plan. As we've just discussed, praying for something that is not according to his plan is pointless, because we can't change his mind about anything, and what God wants to do is already set in place. The second situation, where someone prays for something that is according to God's plan, is equally pointless. If something is according to God's plan prior to the prayer, then it is going to happen regardless of whether you pray for it or not. If God wants some kid with cancer to live, then praying for him is pointless because before you even kneel down in front of your bed or in your church, God has already decided that the boy will live. What's the point of praying for something that is going to happen anyway? It's like praying for the law of gravity. It's going to happen anyway, so why pray for it? In both of the situations, prayer is pointless.

Either your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.

-Dave >>

Anonymous — Mon, 28 Aug 2006 00:06:06 GMT

Hi Dave,

I think the question I ask is, "Do I trust God?" I have been in the place of praying for a boy who has cancer. In my prayer, I have realized that my prayer has brought me to a place with God, where God is asking me, "Do you trust me?" We don't have all the answers yet. That's where the trust comes into play.

A friend recently asked, "Do you think that the source of our agony lies in our assumption that if we keep our end of the bargain (obedience, etc.), God is obligated to keeping His by guaranteeing us health, fruitfulness, a fulfilling job, etc? When life doesn't play out that way, we become disillusioned?

When we read over I Pet 4:12, 13a: "Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering as though something strange were happening to you..." And aren't we surprised at the suffering when it comes?!! It is "strange". We feel it is unfair! And we feel we deserve better!

The passage goes on, "But rejoice that you [are now participating] in the sufferings of Christ." My friend mentioned, "Now that seems a bit heavy. When we committed our lives to following Him, we did not anticipate that level of pain....or identification with Christ. And to "rejoice" in it? It is humanly impossible without Divine help.

My friend helped me to discover that there are no pat answers to life's vexing questions. But one thing I do know with certainty is that in eternity, our good and just God promises to "...wipe every tear from [our] eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain..." (Rev 21:4a) That is our eternal hope.

Does pray work? Well, I've never experienced prayer as some sort of power on my part to change the mind of God, or a way of healing the sick through it. The problem I have is trusting God's promises, which are clearly defined...and my experience with prayer is Him helping me to trust Him and the outcome I pray that I am ready to accept.

Take care,

-aSinnerForgiven

JeanW — Sun, 27 Aug 2006 10:59:06 GMT

Dave,

The way I was taught (growing up CS), and still believe is that the purpose of prayer is not to change God, but to change the petitioner. When I pray, it is to bring myself into line with God and His love, not to bring God into alignment with my will. Thus, prayer is not pointless, but healing.

Would you be willing to accept this as a purpose / reason to pray?

- JeanW

Anonymous — Wed, 23 Aug 2006 11:08:56 GMT

Wow, go figure the mind of God. Oh, that's right, you can't.

I can't finish what I want to say now but I think the song "Held" by Natalie Grant might be a good one for you to listen to.

Is Prayer Pointless?

Anonymous — Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:44:10 GMT

It is common practice among Christians to pray for people who are sick or are in need. Suppose that a few Christians know a boy who has cancer. The disease is inoperable and untreatable in this case, so our Christian friends pray for the boy. A few weeks later, the boy dies. This is a familiar scenario which is often encountered in the creationist world. One can't help but wonder why the praying didn't work. Was the boy a sinner, and therefore deserved to die? Did his friends simply not pray hard enough? Probably not. The explanation that most Christians use is that it was not God's will for the boy to live. In other words, written in God's big book of how things are going to happen, Timmy is supposed to reach the end of the line at such and such date. At first glance, this seems to make sense. For whatever mysterious reason, it was the boy's time to go, and because of that, no amount of prayers could change it. Most Christians agree to this reasoning.

But let's back up a bit here. We said that no amount of prayers could change the outcome of the boy with cancer situation because it is God's will that the boy die. This actually says a lot more than you might think. This means that we can't change something that is in God's plan. If God wants the boy to die, then he is going to die. Doesn't this make praying pointless? Doesn't this mean that you can't change what God is going to do, so it doesn't matter if you pray or not? At this point of the argument, most Christians tell me that prayer convinces God to change his mind about his divine plan. Here, I would like to take a small detour to prove that God cannot change his mind, due to the fact that he is perfect. The reason is simply this: there is always a best choice in any situation. For someone to change their mind, they have to deem their new choice better than their old one. Suppose, for example, that God thought that one plus one equals three. God then changes his mind to thinking that one plus one equals two. This situation is impossible because for God to change his mind to the best choice (one plus one equals two), he must have previously had a worse choice. This math situation cannot happen because God must be wrong in the first place. For him to change to thinking that one plus one equals two, he must first think that one plus one equals something else, which is wrong. God is never wrong, remember? He always knows the best choice, because he is omniscient. God always selects the best choice from the start. As a result, God can never change his mind. Granted, sometimes the best choice is only slightly better than the other choice, but it doesn't matter. All questions have a best answer. It is impossible to calculate the best answer to a question for us because we must look at every single tiny effect on everything else, but for an omniscient god, this is no difficult task at all. God always makes the best choice, because he is never wrong. Every choice he makes is perfect -- there is no better choice. Now, let's get back to the original argument.

I made that point to show that God cannot change his mind. The relevance to the argument is that God cannot be convinced to make a different choice. So let's get this straight: if God's plan is set in place, and God's mind is set in place, then how can prayer change anything? There exist two kinds of situations: (1) someone prays for something that is not according to God's plan, and (2) someone prays for something that is according to God's plan. As we've just discussed, praying for something that is not according to his plan is pointless, because we can't change his mind about anything, and what God wants to do is already set in place. The second situation, where someone prays for something that is according to God's plan, is equally pointless. If something is according to God's plan prior to the prayer, then it is going to happen regardless of whether you pray for it or not. If God wants some kid with cancer to live, then praying for him is pointless because before you even kneel down in front of your bed or in your church, God has already decided that the boy will live. What's the point of praying for something that is going to happen anyway? It's like praying for the law of gravity. It's going to happen anyway, so why pray for it? In both of the situations, prayer is pointless.

Either your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.

-Dave