 Posted Wednesday, June 14, 2006 9:35 AM
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| I, too am uncomfortable with the notion that women should submit to their husbands. I can understand why men would agree to this but will never figure out why women give in to this notion. It doesn't matter how nicely the word submit is defined when you come down to the bottom line submission is still saying man has power over woman.
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Posted Wednesday, June 14, 2006 9:50 AM
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I've also struggled with this little item. I once worked for a wonderful man as an assistant in a school setting who was smart, educated and truly held the highest ethics while performng his position and who was also a born-again Christian. He, in turn, was 'supervised' by one of the biggest idiots who ever walked this earth (a school principal). He found it somewhere in the bible that he must 'submit' to this idiot's instruction, not matter what. That's when I began to 'wonder' about born-again Christians.
Also Curious
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Posted Wednesday, June 14, 2006 8:10 PM
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He found it somewhere in the bible that he must 'submit' to this idiot's instruction
Putting submission into practice can be difficult and complicated when not everyone involved is acting according the the biblical guidelines. And submission is not even biblical if, for example, the leader is asking a person to act in ways that are against God's standards. But the principle of submission and selfless, sacrificial leadership is biblical and, in my opionion, nothing to cringe about. It's not a power issue if handled correctly.
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Posted Thursday, June 15, 2006 7:26 AM
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Submission is still submission. Power over another. Submission is when there are differing views, and one must submit to another. If women are not uncomfortable with this, then they probably either:
(a) are saying they submit, but are really not having to submit. As a previous poster said, they let their husbands think they are running the show. So there is no reason to feel uncomfortable.
(b) are submissive people by nature, and are not uncomfortable with submission.
In other words, you are either submissive by nature, and are comfortable with submission to your husband. Or you are not comfortable, and either act like your husband is running the show, or you opening disagree with it.
I think that all of these types are in the minority, and most couples agree to be equal partners, and there is give and take, compromise, and no planned submission by either one on a full time basis. Yes, each submits or gives in equally during the life of the relationship, but neither one plans to submit consistently all of the time.
I think there are many Christian women who say they submit to their husbands, but in practice they are not. It may be just symbolic.
The problem with this is that while it may work out for them with no negative implications, it hurts other women who do have a problem with a dominant husband, and this idea of biblical submission is a real problem for them. I have never advised in all the years of counseling battered women, that a woman submit biblically to her husband - just the opposite. It may be easy for strong women to say they submit biblically to their husband, because they are strong, and it doesn't really happen, it is mostly symbolic. But for Christian women that are weak, and have a problem with a dominant husband, this is a dangerous creed for them to follow. In my Christian counseling center for battered women, this idea of submitting to your husband is one of the biggest problems we see women for.
The way to follow this biblically is to take the definition of submission as respect. But this goes both ways also, and the husband also respects the wife, or submits to the wife. Dominance as submission over another only leads to problems.
Christian Counselor
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Posted Thursday, June 15, 2006 9:26 PM
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The way to follow this biblically is to take the definition of submission as respect.
I looked up the word "submit" in my Strong's Concordance to find the Greek word from which it was translated. Here's what Strong's Concordance says the Greek word means: to obey: -- be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) into subjectin (to, under), submit self unto.
This same word (hupotasso) is used in James 4: 7 when he says "Submit yourselves, then, to God." So I don't think the word can really be translated "to respect."
With that said, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue. It isn't a core doctrine vital to salvation or to defining Christianity, and Christians clearly disagree on it. I am aware that it has been used to great harm in many cases; cases, I'm sure, where the husband was acting selfishly and was NOT holding up his end of the biblical bargain. It is clearly wrong for the husband to demand submission from his wife if he is not willing to lead as the Bible directs him to -- sacrificially and with his wife's best interest always in mind. I am not saying that a wife should submit to abuse.
My point in defending the submission issue is that the Bible paints marriage as a picture of Christ and His church. That's a key reason why marriage should be protected and treated seriously. I believe that, when both the husband and wife follow the biblical guidelines, the marriage will be strong and healthy.
So my point is not that all women "have" to submit to their husbands -- I wouldn't tell someone what to do on this issue. My point is that the Bible has set out a standard that, when followed correctly, is a good thing.
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Posted Friday, June 16, 2006 8:27 PM
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Christian Counselor,
Why do you suppose Jesus' core disciples ("The 12" a.k.a. the Apostles) were all men?
Do Go Be Man
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Posted Saturday, June 17, 2006 10:24 AM
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Do Go Be Man:
I can't wait here all day for Christian Counselor to respond. So, why don't you give us your idea of an answer?
Thanks in advance,
Also Curious
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Posted Saturday, June 17, 2006 1:08 PM
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| It seems to me this whole thread is pointless if you actually read the entire chapter in context -- as Linda pointed out. It's sort of like getting hung up on what the definition of "is" is.
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Posted Saturday, June 17, 2006 3:39 PM
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Also Curious,
I can't wait here all day for Christian Counselor to respond. So, why don't you give us your idea of an answer?
Sorry to disappoint, but about all I had in mind was that God knew what He was doing as it served His own purposes and that it reinforces the role of men as servant leaders and teachers.
Another way of looking at an old question occurred to me today - by what authority can God's word be declared errant and irrelevant?
As I've said on this and other issues, from a secular point of view, anyone submitting to anyone else is, at best, uncomfortable. Yet, the Bible makes clear declarations. Should our social conscience compel us to ignore the Bible on issues which conflict with other beliefs and personal preferences?
Do Go Be Man
<><
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Posted Sunday, June 18, 2006 6:17 PM
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