 Posted Monday, June 26, 2006 8:55 AM
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Interesting topic. I also find it curious that many women hold the position that "Women should submit to their husbands".
I realize that the bible says so, but times have changed a lot since then. For those who say that we should follow everything exactly as the bible says.... do you also dress as they did in those days? Cultural norms change, and as I have to admit that as a man I like the idea of women submitting to me, I realize that that is not correct in today's times. Many men will try to convince women that this is still applicable today, but they are doing so from selfish ambitions.
Christian man living in today's world
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Posted Monday, June 26, 2006 11:08 AM
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If you have carefully read my posts throughout this thread, it should be clear that I consider the issue to be more than a mere "cultural norm." Dress style DOES reflect cultural norms and is, therefore, changeable. The relationship between Christ and his church, and the parallel drawn between that relationship and husband-wife relationships seems, to me, to transcend fashion trends.
If you make the statement, "I have to admit that as a man I like the idea of women submitting to me," I don't think you understand man's biblical role in the process -- his sacrificial, selfless, and God directed leadership. That puts more pressure on the man than it does on the woman. It's not the power trip you make it out to be.
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Posted Monday, June 26, 2006 12:45 PM
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"I have to admit that as a man I like the idea of women submitting to me." (gag)
Thanks, Linda, for your reply to this 'Christian man living in today's world.' I've been trying to think just how to respond to that statement all morning and you 'said' it perfectly.
Also Curious
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Posted Monday, June 26, 2006 1:52 PM
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Linda & Also Curious,
I am glad that you don't like my statement "I like the idea of women submitting to me", because as much as I might like the idea of that, I know that it is wrong. I too gag at that phrase. Men and women were created equal, and women should not submit to her husbands. I notice the "gag" in Also Curious' response, and find it curious that she would gag and then go on to agree with Linda, and agree for women to submit to men.
I agree that men need to have "sacrificial, selfless, and God directed leadership", but women need to have that also. Many do not because they deny themselves. Maybe you both are submissive women, but I know many women who could take that role as capably as a man. I am not criticizing you for being submissive, but do not deny other women their right to lead and choose not to submit to men. Many people are natural leaders in this world, and men don't have the corner on the market. Please stand up for yourselves ladies.
Christian man living in today's world
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Posted Monday, June 26, 2006 2:16 PM
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Linda responded to your statement within the context of her understanding of the bible. Your gagging statement deserves a response from all the various forms of beliefs, a rebuff from every believer or disbeliever. It's cute you're trying to neutralize something that is obviously part of your make up, Christian or not.
"Stand up for yourselves, ladies"? Oh, yeah, like we need advice from you.
Also Curious
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Posted Monday, June 26, 2006 2:24 PM
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Christian man living in today's world,
I am a leader by nature and am the type to naturally rise to leadership positions when I choose to. Submission is a choice, just as Jesus Christ chose to submit to the Father in order to accomplish his task on Earth. I lead in many areas in my home, but I also recognize my husband as the head of our household. There are certain decisions that ultimately fall to him. I can't expect you to understand the relationship since you don't know my husband and me and since you don't seem to agree with the husband wife relationship described in the Bible. I think it's one of those "you either get it or you don't" situations. No disrespect intended -- just a description of why you see biblical submission as demeaning and I do not.
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Posted Monday, June 26, 2006 3:40 PM
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Also Curious,
Gagging is your term, not mine. I was referring to your dislike of men "liking" the idea of women submitting to men. As you said - "gag" to that idea. But then you go on to apparently agree with the concept of women submitting to men. It seems that you struggle with the bible's instruction on on hand, and your own distaste for submitting to men on the other.
I actually don't understand what you mean with Your gagging statement deserves a response from all the various forms of beliefs, a rebuff from every believer or disbeliever. It's cute you're trying to neutralize something that is obviously part of your make up, Christian or not. Maybe you can explain that better.
Linda,
You are right that I don't know you and your husband. If you are submissive, that is fine. No criticism from me. Someone must take the lead in the household, and I would not criticize you for that. But I believe that a woman can take the lead also, and many do. From your statements, you believe that a woman should not lead the household. I do not know if you believe that a woman is not capable of being the head of the household. I will let you answer that. But many women are more capable than their husbands of being the head of the household. And if I understand you correctly, you would still say that they should submit to their husband, and their husband should still be the head of the household even if they are less capable. Am I correct in that assumption?
How far do you go with the concept of women submitting to men? In business too? Can women be leaders at work?
I just can't believe that I am a male, supporting women's rights to lead, and not submit to men, and I have females disagreeing with me.
Christian man living in today's world
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Posted Monday, June 26, 2006 5:23 PM
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Your 'gagging' statement stands on its own...and is a repulsive attitude by anyone's standards. That isn't difficult to understand and I'll try to avoid any comments about 'deaf' ears and 'selective' listening. I was agreeing with Linda's interpretation of the bible (and she doesn't need me to defend her so let's end it here), but is not necessarily anything I live by. This does not mean that I agree with the bible's 'take' on any of this. It's christians like yourself who cherry pick verses from the bible and still expect the rest of us to believe that you will be 'saved' while living within your own rules. Your defensive moves toward women fall on my deaf years, by the way.
Also Curious
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Posted Monday, June 26, 2006 7:09 PM
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Christian man living in today's world,
Of course women can be leaders at work. We have been discussing what the Bible says about marriage -- NOT business or any other relationship. Women are just as capable of leading as men. WHAT have I said that makes you assume that I would think that women are not capable of being leaders?
If you are submissive, that is fine. No criticism from me.
You make me sound like a little field mouse who likes being told what to do. Let me assure you that this is NOT the case. Choosing to submit to someone under a certain circumstance does not mean that a person is submissive by nature or in all circumstances. You are extrapolating here -- a common mistake among people who assume that biblical submission in marriage means submission to men in all walks of life.
The Bible gives instructions to men for the marriage relationship just as it gives instructions for women. A strong biblical marriage requires that both partners follow the instructions in order for them to reap the blessings. I believe that God will bless each partner as he/she holds up his/her end of the bargain. But I don't think that a woman should submit to tyrany, abuse, neglect, etc.
Regarding whether a woman "is capable" of leading a household -- of course she is. Biblical submission is not a question of capability. It's a choice -- an act of the will. That is why instructions are given to do it -- it doesn't necessarily come naturally. If women were, by nature, dumb and easily controlled, they wouldn't have to be told that God intends their husbands to be leaders in the household. And -- dare I say it -- if leading unselfishly came naturally to men, they wouldn't have to be told to lead unselfishly. 
I just can't believe that I am a male, supporting women's rights to lead, and not submit to men, and I have females disagreeing with me. You overestimate your role here.  We're not talking about a leadership and submission issues between men and women in general -- we are discusing one specific area where the Bible gives specific instructions.
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Posted Tuesday, June 27, 2006 3:20 PM
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