 Posted Monday, May 05, 2008 11:01 AM
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A watchful Christian Scientist,
I posted a reply to your May 5, 2008 @ 2:21:37 AM message as a new topic, Doctrinal and Bible Related Issues » Mary Ann or Ginger?
Do Go Be Man
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Posted Monday, May 05, 2008 11:29 AM
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| Regarding the above posts, I can't help but wonder why the Christian Scientists consider anyone who speaks out about the suffering and/or unexplained deaths is said to be "attacking" the church such that it must defend. A polio outbreak, a measles outbreak, child deaths, disabled people due to lack of medical treatment, people dying of medically treatable illnesses, childhood suffering at the hands of CS "treatment", family shunning, etc. are things that happened, some of us witnessed first hand; so is everyone just supposed to keep quiet? It is hardly an attack. We are sharing experiences in a supportive environment and if a CS happens to see it and not like what they see, so be it, but don't accuse the posters of "attacking".
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Posted Monday, May 05, 2008 4:24 PM
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| Dear Do Go and All, I understand all are welcome here. And please forgive me if I sounded a little testy, but it just seems that every time a good discussion gets going, here comes a CS member to tell us all how wrong we are....how many healings they have had....and how full the churches are. I personally have suffered a great deal in the name of Christian Science....a totally dysfunctional childhood (and no polio shots) as I was told that everything I saw or felt was not real. I struggle with the mind control still. I was so thrilled to find this forum and read the stories that were so much like mine and participate in them, but I guess every time one of them comes on here to tell me how wrong I am, I just revert back to those voices in my head. "This is error....this is not real....know the truth....something wrong with your thinking". I am the last member alive in my family. All died well before they had to with illnesses that if treated early would not have killed them. Sorry if I sounded a little irritated. Sharon
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Posted Monday, May 05, 2008 6:09 PM
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Watchful:
Can you honestly say that a suffering child of the age group between pre-school and high school lacks a strong enough faith to heal themselves when they do not experience the "healing" and continue to suffer. If a parent is responsibile for their child's health and wellbeing, how can any parent tell a grade-school age kid that their faith isn't strong-enough to "heal" a fungal infection? Or to tell a 12 year-old that their connection to their God isn't strong-enough to get them through the pain of rebreaking or resetting a broken leg? These days in a whole number of jurisdictions, any parent who tried to manipulate the ER staff under religious exemption grounds would be looking at a visit from a social service investigator, before a decision was reached on continued custody. My sisters and I were repeatedly victimized growing-up in a household that was characterized by repeated acts of physical violence, emotional abuse, and medical neglect, and we were all exposed to repeated acts of sexual abuse at the hands of people who were blindly trusted because of their affiliation with the CS church. And nothing was ever done about any of the abuse until we were all well into adulthood. My CS abusers have been protected by a CS code of silence.
If you've read my mother's book you know my story. It was included in her book without my permission. I was never even asked, it just showed-up in the mail one day. A few days later I was having to field questions from a number of surprised relatives and people from our old church. I hadn't even shared my story outside of family or a single therapist at that time. How would you enjoy being publicly exposed for being the survivor of unresolved traumatic abuse? At the time of my abuse my mother beat me up for "lying" about a trusted member of her church. Why don't you do a Google search on adolescent sexual abuse? Look-up Mic Hunter? Or go to the Leelenau School's website and look-up AJ Sutherland's email address on their class of 1968 alumni page?Instead of constantly trying to discredit me or shout-down my story. The fact remains: 30, 35, 40, or more years ago, when my sisters and I were growing-up and were completely dependant on our parents for our medical wellbeing, we were consistently failed by our parent's lack of understanding, not our own lack of understanding. We were children, and our parents could not help us or teach us how to heal ourselves. None of us are interested in your views on CS "healing". That chance came and went long ago.
There was always a considerable gap between theory and practice of CS where I grew-up. There were a dearth of miraculous healings and plenty of evidence of a lack of understanding on many issues. I'll give up attacking your Pasadena church with a couple of notes. I did a search on your church and found some photos on your website that show all to well the average attendance and age of your parishioners, plus some black & white photos that seem to show a younger, larger, more conservatively dressed crowd. My guess is that the black & white ones are older photos from a different era.
Can you explain all of the miraculous alleged healing in your experience and the conflict with the lack of healing in my upbringing? I watched as many too many people suffered and died prematurely when their beliefs didn't save them. My own father died at age 68 when the use of an over-the-counter medication could have saved him. His dad died under very similar circumstances at age 67, despite his devotion to the Mother Church and the Monitor. And my mom's mother also died of the same thing when she was in fairly good health. Why do CSers like you try so hard to interfere with the people on this site who have mostly come here seeking group support for their suffering as children? Why does your church try so hard to silence what should be semi-private sharing?
Forcing a child to suffer untreated illness or injury and denying access to medical care, while blaming the victim for a lack of faith is flat-out chilid-abuse. If you people want to abuse yourselves you have that right. Or do you? Do people have a right to drink themselves to death? Or ingest as much heroin or cocaine as they can possibly afford? Why not? Why should any church be granted a religious exemption so that its members can abuse themselves? Or their children?
I wish the sole remaining Pasadena church success in its continuing search for enough new members to survive. I won't come to your services and count-up the empty seats ever again, and nor will my sisters. Please stay off of this site so that the people who have come in search of group support can maybe find what they have searched endlessly for. My longstanding family issues are not open for conjecture or your blaming the victim approach. I'm sure that you wouldn't want someone disparaging your memories or trying to prevent you from resolving your longstanding issues. Stay away from mine. You don't want to open that Pandora's box. And tell Chandler W to stay away from violating his Alcoholics Anonymous anonymity pledge concerning me. I don't have anything against him but he crossed a line a couple of times concerning me. We shall call this our agreement.
Thanks much,
Mark Richardson,
son of Robert Richardson, died at age 68 from medically-curable reasons, former first and second reader of 2 CS churches
grandson of Donovan Richardson, died at age 67 from medically-curable reasons, former Chief Editorial Writer of CS Monitor.
grandson of Emma Offutt Schock, died at age 77 of medically-curable reasons. former CS practitioner and first reader.
great grandson of Granville Richardson, retired Chief County Judge, Roswell NM, died at age 79 of natural causes. Non CS believer.
great great grandson of Henry Clay Offutt, retired Livestock Commision Officer, Kansas City, MO, died at age 88 of natural causes. Non CS believer.
Isn't it funny how the non- CS believers live longer than the CS supporters?
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Posted Monday, May 05, 2008 6:35 PM
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| I find it odd that the Christian Scientist attempt to engage any discussion on this forum whatsoever. I was taught that a Christian Scientist was not supposed to debate it in public. Anything negative was to be handled by the COP (Committee on Publication). Was I taught wrong or was someone just trying to shut me up? On another note: Isn't it kind of creepy that a religion has to have a "Big Brother" organization to keep control of information disemination?
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Posted Monday, May 05, 2008 10:53 PM
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Watchful:
There are plenty of websites that you can go to where estimated CS Church attendance figures are given. The estimated US average attendance at CS churches is in the 60,000 to 75,000 range. An aggregate average from the many sites puts the number of CS branch churches and societies that have closed since 1980 in the 800 to 900 range. Obviously you folks are overstating the number of remaining CS branch churches on your website. There haven't been 2,000 CS churches operating for many years now. I'm not second-guessing I'm just relaying what I've found on the internet. It seems that there has been some lamenting a lack of spiritual understanding in the heartland in official Church leadership circles. The heartland is where the collapse of the CS Church is most acutely felt. It is also the area of my upbringing. I can't go back to the church of my upbringing anymore, as they are long out of business. In fact, more than half of the CS churches in metro-Detroit have closed their doors since 1980. And as several of the more extensive websites report, more than half of the LA-area CS churches have closed in the same timeframe too. And I was told by more than one CS supporter in Pasadena about former CS churches there. In Detroit only 1st, 6th, and 8th churches remain in business. In Denver only 2nd and 6th churches are still around. And in St. Paul only 2nd church remains open. I know, St. Paul and its suburbs only have about a million people, who live in the shadow of Minneapolis. St. Paul is a small town by LA standards.
I saw a Minnesota State child abuse agency website that says that medical neglect is child abuse, as is denying medical care for children suffering from emotional abuse or other forms of abuse. Their research was impeccible academic statistical research drawn from hundreds of reports and studies and quotes dozens of interested professional therapists. Would you care to try to discredit their findings?
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Posted Tuesday, May 06, 2008 6:09 AM
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I was taught that a Christian Scientist was not supposed to debate it in public. So was I. There haven't been 2,000 CS churches operating for many years now. I have a friend who complies church stats from information availbable from The Mother Church. As of May 2007 there were 1250 CS churches and 511 societies worldwide. The number drops by a couple % per year.
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Posted Tuesday, May 06, 2008 8:00 AM
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I am very glad that we have CSists posting here. I suppose some might call it debate, but I prefer the terms (and attitude) of discussion and fellowship.
Rather than being concerned about whether a particular church has the claimed active membership, I'd be curious to know why that church seems more active than the typical CS church. What are they doing that other CS churches are not to attract an active membership? Can the experiences of the Pasadena church be replicated elsewhere? Is the Pasadena membership the result of growth or consolidation? Are their theological positions in line with TMC?
Do Go Be Man
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Posted Wednesday, May 07, 2008 4:40 PM
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I think that a lot of the numbers that I have read are either US churches or do not include societies. US CS church numbers are in the 1,000 to 1,100 range, and US average attendance is in the 60,000 to 75,000 range. The Denver Broncos draw more than that on an average Sunday. I would bet that more people attend any church on an average Sunday in Springfield, MO than attend the CS church on an average Sunday all across America.
60,000 divided by 1,000 equals 60. 75,000 divided by 1,100 equals a bit over 68. Is that the average Sunday attendance at the average American CS church? 100,000 divided by 2,000 only equals 50. It is not hard to speculate on the reason for the closure of so many CS churches. You take out what the MC draws and the branch church attendance estimates drop substantially. I know personally of CS churches which only average in the 30 to 40 range on an average Sunday, so there must be others that average more. Or maybe not.
There isn't much room to debate these numbers.
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Posted Wednesday, May 07, 2008 5:41 PM
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