 Posted Tuesday, August 22, 2006 9:44 PM
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It is common practice among Christians to pray for people who are sick or are in need. Suppose that a few Christians know a boy who has cancer. The disease is inoperable and untreatable in this case, so our Christian friends pray for the boy. A few weeks later, the boy dies. This is a familiar scenario which is often encountered in the creationist world. One can't help but wonder why the praying didn't work. Was the boy a sinner, and therefore deserved to die? Did his friends simply not pray hard enough? Probably not. The explanation that most Christians use is that it was not God's will for the boy to live. In other words, written in God's big book of how things are going to happen, Timmy is supposed to reach the end of the line at such and such date. At first glance, this seems to make sense. For whatever mysterious reason, it was the boy's time to go, and because of that, no amount of prayers could change it. Most Christians agree to this reasoning.
But let's back up a bit here. We said that no amount of prayers could change the outcome of the boy with cancer situation because it is God's will that the boy die. This actually says a lot more than you might think. This means that we can't change something that is in God's plan. If God wants the boy to die, then he is going to die. Doesn't this make praying pointless? Doesn't this mean that you can't change what God is going to do, so it doesn't matter if you pray or not? At this point of the argument, most Christians tell me that prayer convinces God to change his mind about his divine plan. Here, I would like to take a small detour to prove that God cannot change his mind, due to the fact that he is perfect. The reason is simply this: there is always a best choice in any situation. For someone to change their mind, they have to deem their new choice better than their old one. Suppose, for example, that God thought that one plus one equals three. God then changes his mind to thinking that one plus one equals two. This situation is impossible because for God to change his mind to the best choice (one plus one equals two), he must have previously had a worse choice. This math situation cannot happen because God must be wrong in the first place. For him to change to thinking that one plus one equals two, he must first think that one plus one equals something else, which is wrong. God is never wrong, remember? He always knows the best choice, because he is omniscient. God always selects the best choice from the start. As a result, God can never change his mind. Granted, sometimes the best choice is only slightly better than the other choice, but it doesn't matter. All questions have a best answer. It is impossible to calculate the best answer to a question for us because we must look at every single tiny effect on everything else, but for an omniscient god, this is no difficult task at all. God always makes the best choice, because he is never wrong. Every choice he makes is perfect -- there is no better choice. Now, let's get back to the original argument.
I made that point to show that God cannot change his mind. The relevance to the argument is that God cannot be convinced to make a different choice. So let's get this straight: if God's plan is set in place, and God's mind is set in place, then how can prayer change anything? There exist two kinds of situations: (1) someone prays for something that is not according to God's plan, and (2) someone prays for something that is according to God's plan. As we've just discussed, praying for something that is not according to his plan is pointless, because we can't change his mind about anything, and what God wants to do is already set in place. The second situation, where someone prays for something that is according to God's plan, is equally pointless. If something is according to God's plan prior to the prayer, then it is going to happen regardless of whether you pray for it or not. If God wants some kid with cancer to live, then praying for him is pointless because before you even kneel down in front of your bed or in your church, God has already decided that the boy will live. What's the point of praying for something that is going to happen anyway? It's like praying for the law of gravity. It's going to happen anyway, so why pray for it? In both of the situations, prayer is pointless.
Either your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.
-Dave
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Posted Wednesday, August 23, 2006 11:08 AM
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Wow, go figure the mind of God. Oh, that's right, you can't.
I can't finish what I want to say now but I think the song "Held" by Natalie Grant might be a good one for you to listen to.
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Posted Sunday, August 27, 2006 10:59 AM
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Dave,
The way I was taught (growing up CS), and still believe is that the purpose of prayer is not to change God, but to change the petitioner. When I pray, it is to bring myself into line with God and His love, not to bring God into alignment with my will. Thus, prayer is not pointless, but healing.
Would you be willing to accept this as a purpose / reason to pray?
- JeanW
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Posted Monday, August 28, 2006 12:06 AM
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Hi Dave,
I think the question I ask is, "Do I trust God?" I have been in the place of praying for a boy who has cancer. In my prayer, I have realized that my prayer has brought me to a place with God, where God is asking me, "Do you trust me?" We don't have all the answers yet. That's where the trust comes into play.
A friend recently asked, "Do you think that the source of our agony lies in our assumption that if we keep our end of the bargain (obedience, etc.), God is obligated to keeping His by guaranteeing us health, fruitfulness, a fulfilling job, etc? When life doesn't play out that way, we become disillusioned?
When we read over I Pet 4:12, 13a: "Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering as though something strange were happening to you..." And aren't we surprised at the suffering when it comes?!! It is "strange". We feel it is unfair! And we feel we deserve better!
The passage goes on, "But rejoice that you [are now participating] in the sufferings of Christ." My friend mentioned, "Now that seems a bit heavy. When we committed our lives to following Him, we did not anticipate that level of pain....or identification with Christ. And to "rejoice" in it? It is humanly impossible without Divine help.
My friend helped me to discover that there are no pat answers to life's vexing questions. But one thing I do know with certainty is that in eternity, our good and just God promises to "...wipe every tear from [our] eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain..." (Rev 21:4a) That is our eternal hope.
Does pray work? Well, I've never experienced prayer as some sort of power on my part to change the mind of God, or a way of healing the sick through it. The problem I have is trusting God's promises, which are clearly defined...and my experience with prayer is Him helping me to trust Him and the outcome I pray that I am ready to accept.
Take care,
-aSinnerForgiven
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Posted Saturday, October 14, 2006 5:27 PM
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Hello Dave,
Your objection is an understandable one, but it is completely answered by Mary Baker Eddy as follows:
"Prayer cannot change the Science of being, but it tends to bring us into harmony with it. Goodness attains the demonstration of Truth....The mere habit of pleading with the divine Mind, as one pleads with a human being, perpetuates the belief in God as human circumscribed,--an error which impedes spiritual growth.
"God is Love. Can we ask Him to be more? God is intelligence. Can we inform the infinite Mind of anything He does not already comprehend? Do we expect to change perfection? Shall we plead for more at the open fount, which is pouring forth more than we accept?....
"Asking God to *be* God is a vain repetition. God is 'the same yesterday, and to-day, and forever;' and He who is immutably right will do right without being reminded of His province. The wisdom of man is not sufficient to warrant him in advising God.
"Who would stand before a blackboard, and pray the principle of mathematics to solve the problem? The rule is already established, and it is our task to work out the solution. Shall we ask the divine Principle of all goodness to do His own work? His work is done..." (*Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures*, pp. 2-3.)
Prayer as taught by Christian Science is like wiping clean a clouded window to let the sun shine through. The window might be compared to human consciousness, and the sun to God's healing power. Cleaning the window does not make the sun shine through it, but it allows us to see the light more clearly. Similarly, prayer does not cause God's love to shine forth, since it is already doing so; but it allows us to see it more clearly in our experience and to adjust the discord, that has appeared to human sense. That adjustment is called healing.
Another analogy might be tuning a radio station that is out of tune. Doing so doesn't make the music we are trying to listen to any better than it already was, but it allows us to hear it more clearly. Similarly, prayer enables us to perceive more clearly the underlying perfection of God's creation (the Kingdom of Heaven in biblical terms) and the result is healing.
Erol
<< It is common practice among Christians to pray for people who are sick or are in need. Suppose that a few Christians know a boy who has cancer. The disease is inoperable and untreatable in this case, so our Christian friends pray for the boy. A few weeks later, the boy dies. This is a familiar scenario which is often encountered in the creationist world. One can't help but wonder why the praying didn't work. Was the boy a sinner, and therefore deserved to die? Did his friends simply not pray hard enough? Probably not. The explanation that most Christians use is that it was not God's will for the boy to live. In other words, written in God's big book of how things are going to happen, Timmy is supposed to reach the end of the line at such and such date. At first glance, this seems to make sense. For whatever mysterious reason, it was the boy's time to go, and because of that, no amount of prayers could change it. Most Christians agree to this reasoning.
But let's back up a bit here. We said that no amount of prayers could change the outcome of the boy with cancer situation because it is God's will that the boy die. This actually says a lot more than you might think. This means that we can't change something that is in God's plan. If God wants the boy to die, then he is going to die. Doesn't this make praying pointless? Doesn't this mean that you can't change what God is going to do, so it doesn't matter if you pray or not? At this point of the argument, most Christians tell me that prayer convinces God to change his mind about his divine plan. Here, I would like to take a small detour to prove that God cannot change his mind, due to the fact that he is perfect. The reason is simply this: there is always a best choice in any situation. For someone to change their mind, they have to deem their new choice better than their old one. Suppose, for example, that God thought that one plus one equals three. God then changes his mind to thinking that one plus one equals two. This situation is impossible because for God to change his mind to the best choice (one plus one equals two), he must have previously had a worse choice. This math situation cannot happen because God must be wrong in the first place. For him to change to thinking that one plus one equals two, he must first think that one plus one equals something else, which is wrong. God is never wrong, remember? He always knows the best choice, because he is omniscient. God always selects the best choice from the start. As a result, God can never change his mind. Granted, sometimes the best choice is only slightly better than the other choice, but it doesn't matter. All questions have a best answer. It is impossible to calculate the best answer to a question for us because we must look at every single tiny effect on everything else, but for an omniscient god, this is no difficult task at all. God always makes the best choice, because he is never wrong. Every choice he makes is perfect -- there is no better choice. Now, let's get back to the original argument.
I made that point to show that God cannot change his mind. The relevance to the argument is that God cannot be convinced to make a different choice. So let's get this straight: if God's plan is set in place, and God's mind is set in place, then how can prayer change anything? There exist two kinds of situations: (1) someone prays for something that is not according to God's plan, and (2) someone prays for something that is according to God's plan. As we've just discussed, praying for something that is not according to his plan is pointless, because we can't change his mind about anything, and what God wants to do is already set in place. The second situation, where someone prays for something that is according to God's plan, is equally pointless. If something is according to God's plan prior to the prayer, then it is going to happen regardless of whether you pray for it or not. If God wants some kid with cancer to live, then praying for him is pointless because before you even kneel down in front of your bed or in your church, God has already decided that the boy will live. What's the point of praying for something that is going to happen anyway? It's like praying for the law of gravity. It's going to happen anyway, so why pray for it? In both of the situations, prayer is pointless.
Either your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.
-Dave >>
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Posted Sunday, October 15, 2006 2:45 AM
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My last post on this thread contained a type I made in the quote from MBE. Below is the corrected version.
Erol
<< Hello Dave,
Your objection is an understandable one, but it is completely answered by Mary Baker Eddy as follows:
"Prayer cannot change the Science of being, but it tends to bring us into harmony with it. Goodness attains the demonstration of Truth....The mere habit of pleading with the divine Mind, as one pleads with a human being, perpetuates the belief in God as humanly circumscribed,--an error which impedes spiritual growth.
"God is Love. Can we ask Him to be more? God is intelligence. Can we inform the infinite Mind of anything He does not already comprehend? Do we expect to change perfection? Shall we plead for more at the open fount, which is pouring forth more than we accept?....
"Asking God to *be* God is a vain repetition. God is 'the same yesterday, and to-day, and forever;' and He who is immutably right will do right without being reminded of His province. The wisdom of man is not sufficient to warrant him in advising God.
"Who would stand before a blackboard, and pray the principle of mathematics to solve the problem? The rule is already established, and it is our task to work out the solution. Shall we ask the divine Principle of all goodness to do His own work? His work is done..." (*Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures*, pp. 2-3.)
Prayer as taught by Christian Science is like wiping clean a clouded window to let the sun shine through. The window might be compared to human consciousness, and the sun to God's healing power. Cleaning the window does not make the sun shine through it, but it allows us to see the light more clearly. Similarly, prayer does not cause God's love to shine forth, since it is already doing so; but it allows us to see it more clearly in our experience and to adjust the discord, that has appeared to human sense. That adjustment is called healing.
Another analogy might be tuning a radio station that is out of tune. Doing so doesn't make the music we are trying to listen to any better than it already was, but it allows us to hear it more clearly. Similarly, prayer enables us to perceive more clearly the underlying perfection of God's creation (the Kingdom of Heaven in biblical terms) and the result is healing.
Erol
<< It is common practice among Christians to pray for people who are sick or are in need. Suppose that a few Christians know a boy who has cancer. The disease is inoperable and untreatable in this case, so our Christian friends pray for the boy. A few weeks later, the boy dies. This is a familiar scenario which is often encountered in the creationist world. One can't help but wonder why the praying didn't work. Was the boy a sinner, and therefore deserved to die? Did his friends simply not pray hard enough? Probably not. The explanation that most Christians use is that it was not God's will for the boy to live. In other words, written in God's big book of how things are going to happen, Timmy is supposed to reach the end of the line at such and such date. At first glance, this seems to make sense. For whatever mysterious reason, it was the boy's time to go, and because of that, no amount of prayers could change it. Most Christians agree to this reasoning.
But let's back up a bit here. We said that no amount of prayers could change the outcome of the boy with cancer situation because it is God's will that the boy die. This actually says a lot more than you might think. This means that we can't change something that is in God's plan. If God wants the boy to die, then he is going to die. Doesn't this make praying pointless? Doesn't this mean that you can't change what God is going to do, so it doesn't matter if you pray or not? At this point of the argument, most Christians tell me that prayer convinces God to change his mind about his divine plan. Here, I would like to take a small detour to prove that God cannot change his mind, due to the fact that he is perfect. The reason is simply this: there is always a best choice in any situation. For someone to change their mind, they have to deem their new choice better than their old one. Suppose, for example, that God thought that one plus one equals three. God then changes his mind to thinking that one plus one equals two. This situation is impossible because for God to change his mind to the best choice (one plus one equals two), he must have previously had a worse choice. This math situation cannot happen because God must be wrong in the first place. For him to change to thinking that one plus one equals two, he must first think that one plus one equals something else, which is wrong. God is never wrong, remember? He always knows the best choice, because he is omniscient. God always selects the best choice from the start. As a result, God can never change his mind. Granted, sometimes the best choice is only slightly better than the other choice, but it doesn't matter. All questions have a best answer. It is impossible to calculate the best answer to a question for us because we must look at every single tiny effect on everything else, but for an omniscient god, this is no difficult task at all. God always makes the best choice, because he is never wrong. Every choice he makes is perfect -- there is no better choice. Now, let's get back to the original argument.
I made that point to show that God cannot change his mind. The relevance to the argument is that God cannot be convinced to make a different choice. So let's get this straight: if God's plan is set in place, and God's mind is set in place, then how can prayer change anything? There exist two kinds of situations: (1) someone prays for something that is not according to God's plan, and (2) someone prays for something that is according to God's plan. As we've just discussed, praying for something that is not according to his plan is pointless, because we can't change his mind about anything, and what God wants to do is already set in place. The second situation, where someone prays for something that is according to God's plan, is equally pointless. If something is according to God's plan prior to the prayer, then it is going to happen regardless of whether you pray for it or not. If God wants some kid with cancer to live, then praying for him is pointless because before you even kneel down in front of your bed or in your church, God has already decided that the boy will live. What's the point of praying for something that is going to happen anyway? It's like praying for the law of gravity. It's going to happen anyway, so why pray for it? In both of the situations, prayer is pointless.
Either your prayer is against God's will and therefore won't happen because you can't change his mind, or your prayer is according to God's will but doesn't make a difference because God's will would have been carried out anyway. Prayer is pointless. It's a waste of time.
-Dave >>
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Posted Thursday, May 17, 2007 7:08 PM
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| The existence of an all-knowing god seems to be incompatible with the idea of free will; that people DO make choices. If god is omnipitent, god must know beforehand exactly what a person will do in a given situation. In that case, a person is not free to do the alternative to what god already knows he or she will do, and free will must be an illusion. How could God intervene in real time, to answer one's prayer when god already knows the outcome. If one chooses to commit "sin", how can it then be said that someone sinned freely? If prayer is not meant to influence god, but to align our thinking with god's wishes; how is that possible if god already knows what we are going to do. how can prayer influence what god already knows will happen? If god is all knowing, god must already know the future as well as the present. The existence of an all-knowing god seems to be incompatible with the idea of free will.
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Posted Friday, May 18, 2007 6:56 AM
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| Before I address your questions -- I'm wondering if you have children. I think the concepts of free will and prayer make a lot more sense if one has children, and I'd like to know where you're coming from.
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Posted Friday, May 18, 2007 1:18 PM
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Anonymous:
The Scriptural doctrine of the freedom of the human will is closely connected with the doctrine of original sin. The doctrine of the freedom of the human will after the fall of man must be studied from the viewpoint of original sin. Scripture emphatically declares that man, also after the fall, continues to be a responsible moral agent, who in earthly matters, to some extent, may exercise freedom of will; but it asserts that "natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, . . . neither can he know them" (1 Co. 2:14); that man, by nature, is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1); that "the carnal mind is enmity against God" (Ro 8:7) and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost" (1 Co 12:3).
Accordingly, Scripture denies to man after the fall and before conversion freedom of will in spiritual matters, and asserts that conversion is accomplished entirely through the Holy Ghost by the Gospel. God "hath saved us, . . . not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace" (2 Ti 1:9); "Turn Thou me, and I shall be turned" (Jer. 31:18).
Per your comment on prayer, this is one of the great mysteries as it relates to the nature of God, and there is no simple "answer" to this question that is comprehensible to human reason. On the one hand, Scripture does not teach "predeterminism," i.e., that every single thing that happens in our lives has been "predetermined" by God from eternity; in that case petitionary prayer would really be a meaningless activity. On the other hand, we know from Scripture that God is omniscient, also as regards His foreknowledge--He knows from eternity everything that will happen, but that does not necessarily means that He causes it to happen.
There are certainly examples in Scripture of God "changing his mind" (e.g., Ex. 32:14) as a result of prayer or intercession--which results in the rather mind-boggling conclusion that God was completely serious about His original plan or intention (in the case of Exodus 32, to destroy the sinful Israelites), but that He also knew in advance (by virtue of His foreknowledge) that He would change his mind as a result of prayer. Since we will never (on this side of heaven) fully comprehend mysteries such as these, the best course of action is simply to trust God's promises about the power and value of prayer in Christ's name and heed Scripture's many admonitions to pray faithfully and frequently. God has promised to hear our prayer and to answer pray | | | |