 Posted Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:50 AM
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Do_Go_Be_Man (2/4/2009)
One of The Mother Church's official web sites, Spirituality.com, provides online access to three "study" references, Science & Health with Key to the Scriptures (at least Genesis and Revelation), the King James Bible, and Mrs. Eddy's autobiography. I would have been interested to have been in the room when the Christian Science Board of Directors approved elevating her autobiography above her other Prose Works and counted it equal with her textbook and the Bible. I agreed, however, not to argue over the definition of "cult".
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Wow. I spent my first 33 years considering it perfectly acceptable that not only was Science & Health equal with the Bible, it was actually elevated above it (in that the First Reader read from the S&H, and it was "merely" the Second Reader who read from the Bible). But now I am thinking how arrogant that really is. And now her autobiography is up there too? I agree with you, I would have liked to have heard that discussion too!
Ann
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Posted Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:52 AM
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" ....Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, heartfelt compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness, and patience,
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bearing with one another and forgiving one another, if one has a grievance against another; as the Lord has forgiven you, so must you also do....
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....Fathers, do not provoke your children, so they may not become discouraged..."
Colossians 3
DGBM:
Your may be right. I realize I'm cutting and pasting hear, but I think as sinful human beings it's not always easy to follow these and the other words of Paul in this chapter. I wonder how many thousands of youngsters have swore off Christianity because of bad experiences associated with sharing or teaching?
John
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Posted Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:23 PM
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| I'm wondering, do Christians spend more money on insurance premiums or tithing? Leaner
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Posted Thursday, February 05, 2009 3:19 PM
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Leaner,
... do Christians spend more money on insurance premiums or tithing?
Not entirely sure what the point of your question is, but I'd guess most spend more on insurance premiums. Come to think of it, that's probably true for me too. I know I spend more on my mortgage, car payments, and taxes. How about you?
My church once calculated that if even the officers fully tithed there would be no need for anyone else to contribute to exceed our annual budget. Keeping the lights on, however, is not the point of tithing.
The Pharisees had a lot of questions for Jesus regarding the relative obedience of His followers including:
Matthew 15:1-20
Luke 5:30-32
John 8:1-11
I have great need of the Great Physician who forgives my grievous, abundant sins including stealing from Him by not returning to Him the best part of the harvest He provides. Whether you or anyone else also needs Him is well beyond my pay grade, as they say in Washington.
Do Go Be Man
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Posted Thursday, February 05, 2009 8:44 PM
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| [[[[Not entirely sure what the point of your question is....]]]] Oh, I've been reading a bit, about obedient Christians, who is, who isn't, and was just wondering how paying insurance premiums fit in with Jesus' second commandment. And along with that, should a Christian figure in the amount of insurance benefits, medicare, etc. they recieve when calculating their tithes.
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Posted Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:13 PM
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Leaner,
Oh, I've been reading a bit, about obedient Christians, who is, who isn't, and was just wondering how paying insurance premiums fit in with Jesus' second commandment. And along with that, should a Christian figure in the amount of insurance benefits, medicare, etc. they recieve when calculating their tithes.
Not following you on the connection between "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" and insurance benefits.
By my understanding, a tithe is 10% off the top of all income or other harvest. I think there is a case that could be made for it to be a seventh, but trying to figure out whether that includes insurance benefits, medicare, etc. strikes me as straining at gnats and swallowing camels. It's probably also outside the scope of these forums. Are you trying to make a point relevant to the practice of Christian Science?
If you find any fully obedient Christians other than Jesus, please congratulate them and try to follow their example. I don't know any. Everyone I know, especially including me, fails the perfection test. Jesus is God's Perfect Son, the rest of us need Him.
Do Go Be Man
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Posted Friday, February 06, 2009 2:00 PM
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[[[[Not following you on the connection between "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" and insurance benefits.]]]] The connection would be between loving your neighbor as yourself and insurance premiums, not benefits. I was speculating about benefits as they relate to tithing. I was wondering too if scriptures guide our lives today or do our lives today guide our understanding and demonstration of scripture? Are we adapting our lives to Biblical teachings or are we adapting Biblical teachings to our lives? There’s a big difference. Here some examples… Does news of a flu vaccine shortage cause Christians today to hurry to get their shot before they run out? Thereby depriving our neighbor. Do Christians today use modern vaccines even though many contain material from aborted fetuses? Does a gas shortage cause Christians today to purchase gas even though there’s no pressing need to? Would a Christian place his or her name on an organ transplant list ahead of another? Would a Christian today take Social Security knowing that doing so will deprive future generations of these benefits?
[[[[By my understanding, a tithe is 10% off the top of all income or other harvest. I think there is a case that could be made for it to be a seventh, but trying to figure out whether that includes insurance benefits, medicare, etc. strikes me as straining at gnats and swallowing camels. It's probably also outside the scope of these forums. Are you trying to make a point relevant to the practice of Christian Science?]]]] This topic may not be neatly categorized around a specific quote, teaching or practice of Christian Science but addressing specific life examples in the context of Christianity should be within the scope of any discussion on any Christian denomination because as you said… “If you find any fully obedient Christians other than Jesus, please congratulate them and try to follow their example. I don't know any. Everyone I know, especially including me, fails the perfection test. Jesus is God's Perfect Son, the rest of us need Him.” We all have a long way to go and can all learn from each other and grow spiritually in the process. Wouldn't you agree?
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Posted Saturday, February 07, 2009 3:34 PM
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Does news of a flu vaccine shortage cause Christians today to hurry to get their shot before they run out? Thereby depriving our neighbor.
*** If you do not get a flu vaccine and you then come down with flu, are you thereby depriving your neighbor of health because you gave the flu to them?
Do Christians today use modern vaccines even though many contain material from aborted fetuses?
***I do not have a good response to this, but I think my comment above could still apply. I have never heard that many modern vaccines contain material from aborted fetuses. As horrible as that thought is, at least some good came from those deaths.
Does a gas shortage cause Christians today to purchase gas even though there’s no pressing need to?
***You have gas and can then drive someone who otherwise could not.
Would a Christian place his or her name on an organ transplant list ahead of another?
***Would a true Christian do that?
Would a Christian today take Social Security knowing that doing so will deprive future generations of these benefits?
***We pay into Social Security, so I don't see how taking well earned 'benefits' would deprive future generations of them. The lack is due more to the fact that we have more people drawing on those benefits than workers contributing. My generation will pay far more into SS than we'll ever get back when we retire. Your argument would seem to support not paying into it in the first place to prevent depriving myself of those funds right now. Which doesn't seem too Christian either.
I still fail to see how any of these apply to the original question about insurance premiums and tithing. The whole purpose of insurance is just that, insurance that you will be humanly taken care of should some disaster strike. This isn't to say you are less faithful in God. Taking human steps to fill our human needs is simply using wisdom. It is not turning your back on God, it is not un-Christian to be prepared. In fact, it could be construed as un-Christian to be unprepared to help out in a time of need.
I think another element of tithing that nobody has mentioned here is time. Yes, the dictionary definition of tithing means giving ten percent of your money or harvest, however, since few of us are farmers our thoughts and prayers can be considered a harvest as well. Giving our time is just as important a tithe as giving money.
I feel like you are getting too caught up in trying to figure out what is hypocritical behavior and what is not, and worrying about what behavior is Christian and what is not.
I think that Christian Scientists struggle with those types of issues because the very premise of CS is faulty, which leads to much confusion.
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Posted Monday, February 09, 2009 10:25 AM
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Leaner,
We all have a long way to go and can all learn from each other and grow spiritually in the process.
Wouldn't you agree?
I agree we have a ways to go, can learn from each other, and that we can grow.
The questions you pose do not appear to me relevant to these forums. Lacking an appropriate context relevant to our common interests, they seem like pondering the number of angels that can dance upon the head of a pin (my best research could not find a credible answer to that either). Would you like to frame them in the context you have in mind? What conclusion do you wish to reach? If the point is that Christians are morally and ethically inconsistent, may I save some time and effort by simply conceding that point? I don't think any Christian would disagree.
The issue I have with Christian Science is that I traveled a long distance in the wrong direction. I learned much that was erroneous. My spiritual growth was inhibited.
While studying Christian Science, I came to understand the importance of Jesus' essential role and the need to study and understand the Bible in context and as God's word, not merely as a collection of flawed, disjointed legends. When I learned the Bible is not mythology and that the person of Jesus Christ is essential to my eternal life, I changed my direction, learned more, and grew spiritually.
Do Go Be Man
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Posted Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:05 AM
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Dear In The Light,
I found a lot to think about in your opening question.
My mom had the kind of guilt you've been describing. Now, she passed away just 3 years ago, at nearly 67 years old. (That's a different story.)
She carried her list of unhealed problems around like a backpack. She blamed her family's lack of financial success on the fact that she thought she didn't devote herself 100% to the prayer support she felt they needed. She never thought her painting or her piano or her singing voice were perfect enough. Yet you should have heard her sing Psalm 51 the first time!
Somebody could probably slap a name onto all this, but I'm not interested in that. I saw her agonies, and there was little I could say or do to ease them. So I made a decision, early on: I decided to LIKE my own work, even if it wasn't perfect; and I decided to not carry that burden of unhealed stuff on my back. If God was going to heal it, Great! If not, I'd keep praying, but stay cheerful. He knew what was best for me, and mine, after all, I reasoned.
I guess that makes me the next generation.
Actually, though it got better, after I left CS completely. Shortly after the decision, the fact hit me, "I don't have to be PERFECT anymore!" You wouldn't believe the joy that poured over me along with that realization. "And God loves me AS IS." That didn't mean I'd give up on trying to do my best, or practicing the things that make us really blessed. It just meant the pressure and the guilt were off completely! Mercy like that was a new thing.
Yes, there was some healing up time, and some searching into the past, to heal what hurt from childhood. There was plenty of that. And like many of you, it was partly in spite of the loving home my parents had tried to provide. Partly it was from other dysfunctions peculiar to our family.
I remember being 6 years old, having migraines, and the couple times my dad called Grandma to pray for me. It didn't get rid of them, and though I appreciated the love it indicated, I was somewhat disappointed about the difference between my expectations and Grandma's reality. She was loving and non-judgmental. I didn't take it that I was to blame. And no one blamed Grandma either. I don't know how she felt about it, though. I witnessed my dad's migraines, too, and how tenacious they were. That was one of the few times I remember getting yelled at, for trying to help. That's the innocence of the child. It wasn't until 4th grade, that I actually learned the beginnings of how to heal. It was really rare for children to get it younger. We had one who did, at age 7. So anyway, our 4th grade and 6th grade SS teachers were on the ball, and did their part to teach us how. Part of it was like being a watchman on a castle parapet... part was like being the sting operation, to take out whatever thoughts weren't supposed to be there. It was mainly about thought, but if the heart wasn't there, you couldn't get there. You had to be sure of God's love for you. That's why the SS spent so much effort teaching the kids about God being Love.
I guess our confidence in receiving what we prayed for, lay in trusting that God loves us enough to do anything good for us.
Now, by and by, the migraines stopped (thank God). They can do that, just like tornadoes. They pop in, and just pop out. No reason. They just do that. Well, with migraines, it can be years. For some of us, it's pre-seizure activity, which turns up later... and can pop into someone's life for a while, and then disappear for years, or forever. The doctors don't really understand it. Not all migraines are that type, but what my dad & I had were. Mine showed up as seizures by 15. His didn't show up as that until he had white hair.
Well, as for that healing, God said "no." I'd prayed about it for a while before I found out that answer. It was as though he had something to bless me with, by leaving it in my life. I understood that. No I didn't love the idea, but I was comforted by understanding that ultimately God has all kinds of good in the works for us. This was just one step. So I turned my prayers to reaching out and holding his hand, in effect, wherever I went. I prayed for safety, and thanked him for the auras that warned me in time to sit down. It was an ongoing work. I must have scared my folks half to death, because I did everything. I swam in the lakes, hiked long distance, left home at 17 for good, and whatever I felt God leading me to do, I did. In Love, Through Love, With Love. That was the only way I could do it. (And you know, you can't waste time on unjustified guilt if you're going to do that.) I did that for 9 years, before I finally had to go on medication, due to my new duties as a brand new mom.
The Mother Church didn't add any guilt onto me for that either.
I did what I knew I had to do for the time being, and kept praying. And I turned my attention to handling the side effects of the medication, and the stress-related stuff of dealing with a new baby in the Bronx. It was like growing a garden. Usually there's something you've planted that just doesn't do as well as the rest of the garden. At least in the early attempts it's that way. Could be from the weather - too much rain, too little rain- but it's no fault of your own, usually. So you don't fret over what hasn't worked out: you focus on what you can do. Enjoy the work in front of you!
Joy and Love and peace of mind are HUGE remedies for misplaced feelings of guilt. When you're thinking of others, or have your heart focused on God, it's really hard to have pity trips, or self-condemnation over stuff that isn't in your control at the moment. (I really feel for people who got it from others, unjustly.)
I don't know if any of this helps; but I think we all go through some of these battles on a spiritual level (and actual daily physical level), no matter what religion we come from. There's definitely a residual effect from CS lineage. The lucky person is the one who's identified the influences, and has taken steps to supply the need with the really good stuff that was missing.
God bless you in your journey!
Jen
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