 Posted Sunday, November 05, 2006 12:17 AM
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Thanks, Grace, for your description of the many ways God speaks to us. I can fully relate to the part about Him speaking to us through, and in, nature. That's got to be the one way everyone in the world (who has access to nature, that is) can see His handiwork, see evidence of "intelligent design", beauty etc.
The story your son told you about a father carrying his baby & being caught in a rainstorm is exactly what what was presented to our church, in the form of a video. I will find out the name of the particular Christian artist who created this video of himself walking in the rain with his baby strapped to his chest, as you described. It told the very same scenario, with the father narrating the whole story as he made his way through the rain. Maybe it will be accessible to all of us if it's available via internet.
Thanks for sharing. It's good to be posting again! I've taken a long break, but have been reading everyone's posts when I have time. Sometimes a thoughtful reply takes me so long to formulate, I give up before I start! : )
Barb
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Posted Sunday, November 05, 2006 12:53 AM
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Grace mentions having "missed" many of God's tender words which many of us have glossed over, or have never even read, when reading the Bible through the C.S. lens. I can also fullly relate to "trying to rationalize the language of God as being delivered through some CS-described method which I needed to grow in understanding of before I could comprehend it." My mind was so busy trying to make sense of Science & Health in its correlative passages that I overlooked, and was distracted from the beautiful and simple scriptural passages which are present in the Lesson Sermon.
Thank God that His word stands alone, and can speak for itself, even in bits & pieces, touching the hearts of those "sincere seekers of truth" who are still reading the Daily Lesson Sermon. Now, when I visit my CS mom and read the Bible passages with her, they jump out at me and bring great joy to me as I read them to her. Now, years later, I can give her my own spin on what they mean to me, even singing to her simple worship songs which have their roots in some of these passages. Yet, years ago, when I was struggling along trying to make sense of MBE's interpretation of them, I felt inner conflict & confusion. AT THE TIME I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT HAVE ADMITTED THAT, HOWEVER. I would have chalked it up to "needing to grow in understanding before I could comprehend it", as Grace said. That's what happens when a "leader" claims to have received the inspired meaning of ancient (already inspired) scripture.
TMCL and Erol, I challenge you (lovingly and gently, of course!) to read, say, the entire book of John, or Ephesians chapter 6, without interruption. Long ago my husband used to challenge me to leave S&H alone for awhile to immerse myself in the Bible. It irked me when he did that, because I knew full well he was wishing I'd take scripture for what it says without a CS interpretation attached. I resented his insinuation that I wasn't getting the full impact of the Bible when viewed through the lens of CS. Yet, because he asked me lovingly and gently, and I knew he had my best interests in mind, I went along with it (without him knowing). Sure enough, God communicated a clearer, purer message to me when I simply read passages of scripture alone. It came alive for me. I learned that the Holy Spirit truly does illuminate the Word for us when we sincerely want that.
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Posted Sunday, November 05, 2006 1:00 AM
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The last post was from me. I finally remembered how to log in so as not to be "Anonymous".
Barb
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Posted Sunday, November 05, 2006 2:14 AM
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What a beautiful and well-written post. Until I got to the end, I thought it was a protest against the various misunderstandings of God's loving care for us through the Science of Christianity.
Erol
Anonymous (11/4/2006)
I believe that God speaks to us through the Holy Spirit. The Bible certainly states that God speaks. When necessary, He spoke through the prophets, and I personally believe that He still uses individuals for prophecy now, but that is just my opinion.
Even during Biblical times, not many listened to what the prophets had to say, so I wouldn't blame God much for keeping quiet now if He chose to, or for protecting his would-be prophets from the all-out assault they would get should they speak to us in His name! 
As a side note, there are many times that I find God speaking through music. And, there are people in my life which have said things that I believe are truly inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I also have to add that when taking long walks in the woods or along quiet, remote, lovely paths (like today, for instance, at a nearby reservoir), I have sat to reflect in a very scenic, undisturbed spot and just listened intently to the nature sounds around me. Upon meditating and considering the awesomeness of God, the magnificence of His creation and the wonder of His great love and order throughout the universe -- I have felt God speak. Sometimes in words, sometimes in sensations, sometimes in ways I cannot describe. But at those times, I have learned so very much! And upon later reading new (to me) sections of the Bible, I've found that what I have learned is supported by what I read within its pages. Particularly in the Psalms and also in the writings of Peter, James and Paul.
I believe that in the world we live in, there are so many distractions that keep us from hearing God speak and at times, no matter what language He may use, we are just too caught up in life to hear Him. I also believe that He knows that and is patient with us -- willing to wait, however long, for our ear.
My son shared a story with me today that one of his friends told him, and I think it applies here. My son's friend said that he was hiking one time several years ago and had his infant son in one of those infant belly-packs (like a backpack you wear against your chest). It began to rain hard and they were about a mile from the car. The baby was, of course, distressed and began to fuss and cry. The harder it rained, the louder the baby complained. He said that he snuggled the child close and whispered to him of God's love for him all the way back to the car. Even though the child didn't stop fussing, it was one of the most special times he remembers spending with his son because he felt that they both were wrapped in God's great care as they moved along.
Anyways, he then suggested that my son imagine that child grown up and looking back upon those moments as being dreadful. What if the boy remembered just the misery of being caught in the rain and having to be soaked through, etc. and then one day complained to him (his dad) about how he had taken his child on a walk when it was raining rather than just staying safely at home? Imagine the pain my son's friend would feel because his precious moments with his child were not a shared memory and that the child had missed all the love that he was trying to convey at that moment!
Then he asked my son to consider the scenario of God carrying him (my son) through life's difficulties and whispering all the while how very much He loved my son and how he would protect my son through any difficulty that would be encountered along the path. My son could grow and look at the situation of the walk whatever way he chose to, but missing his Holy Father's great love and holding in thought the difficulties of the journey would cause himself and God also such great needless pain!
God speaks. We can be sure of that. The question is rightly, not what language He uses, but what we choose to hear of what God speaks! I, for one, missed enough of God's love and tender words when trying to rationalize the language of God as being delivered to me through some Christian Science-described method which I needed to grow into understanding of before I could comprehend it! No more of that for this lady, I can assure you! His words are far too important, to wonderous, to holy, to amazing to miss!
Sorry to be so long winded, but I needed to share. I hope it helps someone.
Grace
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Posted Sunday, November 05, 2006 7:00 AM
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I'm very familiar with Ephesians Chapter 6, and also with the book of John.
"All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made." (John 1: 3.)
I do not believe that God, who is entirely good and who made all things, made the Ebola virus, or the AIDS virus, or cancer or...the list goes on.
"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1: 9.)
Every man. Not someone who has to be baptised with material water, or "saved" through substitutionary atonement as long as he lives long enough to understand it (or conversely has the good fortune to die before he is old enough to be responsible for his actions.)
The metaphysics of Mary Baker Eddy are not the problem. As I have shown elsewhere on this message board, they are in large part a re-statement of ideas already present in the Bible.
It is the misinterpretation of Scripture by US-based fundamentalism deriving from sixteenth-century European interpretations of convoluted Pauline theology that is the problem.
Erol
Anonymous (11/5/2006)
Grace mentions having "missed" many of God's tender words which many of us have glossed over, or have never even read, when reading the Bible through the C.S. lens. I can also fullly relate to "trying to rationalize the language of God as being delivered through some CS-described method which I needed to grow in understanding of before I could comprehend it." My mind was so busy trying to make sense of Science & Health in its correlative passages that I overlooked, and was distracted from the beautiful and simple scriptural passages which are present in the Lesson Sermon.
Thank God that His word stands alone, and can speak for itself, even in bits & pieces, touching the hearts of those "sincere seekers of truth" who are still reading the Daily Lesson Sermon. Now, when I visit my CS mom and read the Bible passages with her, they jump out at me and bring great joy to me as I read them to her. Now, years later, I can give her my own spin on what they mean to me, even singing to her simple worship songs which have their roots in some of these passages. Yet, years ago, when I was struggling along trying to make sense of MBE's interpretation of them, I felt inner conflict & confusion. AT THE TIME I CERTAINLY WOULD NOT HAVE ADMITTED THAT, HOWEVER. I would have chalked it up to "needing to grow in understanding before I could comprehend it", as Grace said. That's what happens when a "leader" claims to have received the inspired meaning of ancient (already inspired) scripture.
TMCL and Erol, I challenge you (lovingly and gently, of course!) to read, say, the entire book of John, or Ephesians chapter 6, without interruption. Long ago my husband used to challenge me to leave S&H alone for awhile to immerse myself in the Bible. It irked me when he did that, because I knew full well he was wishing I'd take scripture for what it says without a CS interpretation attached. I resented his insinuation that I wasn't getting the full impact of the Bible when viewed through the lens of CS. Yet, because he asked me lovingly and gently, and I knew he had my best interests in mind, I went along with it (without him knowing). Sure enough, God communicated a clearer, purer message to me when I simply read passages of scripture alone. It came alive for me. I learned that the Holy Spirit truly does illuminate the Word for us when we sincerely want that.
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Posted Sunday, November 05, 2006 11:40 AM
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| Barb, I often read whole books of the Bible without interruption, including the Gospel of John, and Paul's letters. And my Christian Science teacher recommended that we read the entire Bible from cover to cover once a year. I've done that several times, but not once a year as he recommended. I do not believe that I ignore the context of any individual book in the Bible. I believe it is important to understand the theology of each individual Bible writer on its own terms, as well as understanding what passages in the books of those writers meant to such later theologians, as Calvin, Luther, Wesley, Jonathan Edwards, Mary Baker Eddy, etc. I have noticed that the current First Reader of The Mother Church seems to be sensitive to the context of what he reads at Wednesday testimony meetings, as he will often read large chunks of scripture without leaving anything out. A number of weeks ago, for example, he read I Corinthians chapter 15 in its entirety, and invited the congregation to follow along using Bibles that are provided in the pew racks of The Mother Church. And later this week and next week, over the course of two evenings, the Readers of The Mother Church are reading the Gospel of Luke in its entirety, using the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible. This reading will take place in the Extension of The Mother Church. tmcl
tmcl
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Posted Sunday, November 05, 2006 11:44 AM
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Posted Sunday, November 05, 2006 12:48 PM
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I'm sorry, everyone. After reading Barb's post, perhaps I misunderstood my son and the whole story about the dad and his chld on the backpack was not something that happened to his friend in particular, but rather was based upon a story he had heard in passing through a Christian speaker or something. I'm a bit embarrassed about that and will double-check with my son the next time he comes home from college.
I still am grateful to my son for sharing the whole thing with me, though, and apologize if I messed it up a bit in the translation.
Barb, I just want to say to you directly that it is so great to read another post from you. . . . I've missed you! And, as always, enjoyed your message.
God is definitely good to bless us all with each other to learn from and to share with. Although the internet can bring to light some nasty stuff, there is also so much good available. This site definitely is one of those places, I believe.
Grace
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Posted Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:30 PM
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"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1: 9.)
Every man. Not someone who has to be baptised with material water, or "saved" through substitutionary atonement as long as he lives long enough to understand it (or conversely has the good fortune to die before he is old enough to be responsible for his actions.)
Erol, The next verses say, "He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." (John 1:10-11) Looks like there's a difference between shining a light and having someone receive the light rather than sheilding himself or herself against it. If we want to continue this, let's take it to the Doctrine category.
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Posted Monday, November 06, 2006 3:24 AM
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Linda,
OK. I'll open a new thread on "Atonement". I think that's the appropriate theological category.
Erol
Linda (11/5/2006)
"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1: 9.)
Every man. Not someone who has to be baptised with material water, or "saved" through substitutionary atonement as long as he lives long enough to understand it (or conversely has the good fortune to die before he is old enough to be responsible for his actions.)
Erol,
The next verses say,
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God." (John 1:10-11)
Looks like there's a difference between shining a light and having someone receive the light rather than sheildinghimself or herselfagainst it. If we want to continue this, let's take it to the Doctrine category.
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