 Posted Wednesday, November 13, 2002 11:09 AM
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I agree with Carl that CSists don't have access to the Bible in that, though they read the words, the words have different meanings for them. Everything, the Bible, life itself, is seen through the lense of MBE. Biblical passages don't mean what they say, they are spiritually interpreted. Even reading the entire Bible, which my CS father used to do frequently, cover to cover, if it is read through that lense, will not break the narrowness of MBE's vision.
I don't think that we can persuade a CSist out of that vision either. While in CS one has a siege mentallity, they must "stand porter at the door of thought" and evidence contrary to their beliefs only seems to strengthen those beliefs. There is definetely a superior view held by CS. The thought that CS is right and all else wrong, naively so in fact, is almost palpable I think. "Poor misbeguiled people to believe what they see, feel, hear. If only they could know the truth, if they could demonstrate the truth." At least that is the view that I felt when I was in the church. It wasn't so much that what others thought was bad.. more like sad. I am so gratefulthat I married a nonCS. She never pressured me to leave the church, in fact she went with me on occasion and I with her to the Lutheran church. Gradually parts of the Lutheran service that were absent in the CS service became important to me.. It was a if I missed them, though I had never hade them. In that way Christ led me away from CS slowly. It literally saved my life.
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Posted Wednesday, November 13, 2002 1:49 PM
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I found this web site a week ago I have been reading through the messages since then. Much of what I have read resonates with me. I was raised as a Christian Scientist and have been member of the mother church since 1967. I am not a member of a branch church at the present and have been attending a Presbyterian Church for about a year. Richard states in his last message that parts of the Lutheran service that were missing in the CS service started to mean much to him. I am finding that I feel the same way. However, I am struggling and finding it hard to think about leaving the CS church. As I said, much I what I have read makes sense however part of me feels that if I leave I will be destroying a wonderful relationship I have with God. It sounds to me that those of you who have left the church don't believe any good came from it.
Some of the attacks are particularly hard to read.
For example:
I just about had a cardiac when I realized it was Mothers Evening Prayer I was humming. I very quickly replaced it with Amazing Grace. I love both of these hymns.
What part of 'O Gentle presence, Peace and Joy and Power, O Life Divine that owns each waiting hour - denies Jesus?
I do accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior but do I have to throw out everything that has ever sustained me througout my life? This is the message I am getting as I read what you all have to say.
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Posted Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:25 PM
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<< I am finding that I feel the same way. However, I am struggling and finding it hard to think about leaving the CS church. As I said, much I what I have read makes sense however part of me feels that if I leave I will be destroying a wonderful relationship I have with God. It sounds to me that those of you who have left the church don't believe any good came from it.
Some of the attacks are particularly hard to read.
For example:
I just about had a cardiac when I realized it was Mothers Evening Prayer I was humming. I very quickly replaced it with Amazing Grace. I love both of these hymns.
What part of 'O Gentle presence, Peace and Joy and Power, O Life Divine that owns each waiting hour - denies Jesus?
I do accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior but do I have to throw out everything that has ever sustained me througout my life? This is the message I am getting as I read what you all have to say. >>
Leaving CS was the best thing that ever happened to me. I'm sorry if I ever gave the impression that "no good came of it." I left CS because to stay was, for me, to deny Christ. False teaching is false teaching. You can color it purple all day long and it is still false underneath. It is my hope, that Christ, not CS, is all that has ever sustained you. CS does not sustain, it distorts and lies.
I know that it must be hard to read the above about Mother's Evening Prayer. Let's look at it this way...I stated earlier that I remember my childhood prayer, Father, Mother, God. For some time she insisted that no one else could have the title of Mother. MBE did not drop the title until Mark Twain wrote a scathing book,Christian Science in which he made fun of her use of the title. She then closed down "Mother's Room" at the "Mother" Church. In my opinion, by her own definitions the word "Mother" when coming from her pen is blasphemous.
info from God's Perfect Child
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Posted Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:02 PM
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To the most recent Anonymous,
Welcome to the forum. I'm also in a Presbyterian church (PCA). I resigned my Mother Church membership in 1992 having been a member since 1965 and class taught. My experience started with CS Nursery School and Sunday School then ran all the way through College Org, Branch Church, Association, and TMC sponsored activities. Giving up the familiar can be tough especially when it deals with such basic beliefs.
Can't say that no good came of my CS experience, but it certainly did not advance my understanding and application of Biblical truth. Knowing Jesus Christ as my personal Savior did not result from more than 30 years of CS study. I did not find Jesus in S&H. I met him in God's Word. The Bible for me is no longer a flawed historical tome in need of interpretation, but rather a vibrant, practical guide to life and God's love. I came to know that Jesus is God and not merely some man who somehow demonstrated God's power and got most of it right. According to CS, there is no sin and thereby CS denies Jesus' sacrifice. He died for me on the cross and was resurrected so my sins may be forgiven. The only thing He asks of me for salvation is that I believe in Him. What a deal!
CS hymns might make an interesting new forum topic. I too miss many of the hymns. Music is highly inspirational. It can also be a powerful persuader. I've considered trying to write new lyrics for some of my favorite CS hymns though pretty sure such an effort would be legally and doctrinally contraversial. I think that "O Gentle Presence" is the only one of MBE's hymns for which the best known harmony wasn't written by a CSist. Some of MBE's lyrics may in fact align with Christian beliefs. The problem comes with the lyrics that don't. Even within a given hymn, one stanza may work and the next not.
For me, turning away from CS did not require giving up everything that had sustained me. It was only when I gave up my reliance on MBE that I was able to know what and who really sustains me. Jesus Christ is the Bread of Life. Everything I need comes from Him.
Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Luke 12:27 (ESV)
God Bless You!
Do Go Be Man
P.S. I learned something new looking up the quote from Luke. Did you know that the word lilies appears in six verses of Song of Solomon, more than all other instances combined? Jesus knew the Old Testament backwards and forwards. Guess He knew what He came to fulfull. :-)
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Posted Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:08 PM
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Thanks for your quick response. I didn't express my thoughts clearly - I meant to say that it seems that the posts are saying that there is nothing good about CS. That is hard to deal with.
I have always thought of God as Father and Mother not MBE. This has been a comfort to me because I lost my own mother at a very young age. I have never attached the term mother to MBE.
I do need someone to talk with and perhaps this is not the best place - but again I thank you for your response. I've been searching for a long time.
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Posted Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:12 PM
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Sorry to stay annoymous but I am not ready to join yet.
Thank you for your response. I guess I don't want to throw away the 'baby with the bath water."
I am also class taught - back in 1977. It is good to talk with someone else who may have struggled with the same feelings I have now.
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Posted Wednesday, November 13, 2002 6:07 PM
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Dear latest Anonymous,
Please don't go away...I know there are many people who feel, or have felt, just the same way you do.
You and I have much in common. I, too, joined the Mother Church in 1967. I was class taught, I was a member of and president of my college org, and I served as 1st Reader for two separate terms. I was raised from infancy in CS, and my wife and I raised our four children in CS.
Yes, the CS church was a source of comfort, strength, growth (especially intellectual) for nearly 40 years of my life. Is everything in CS false or evil? No, not at all. Therein lies part of the problem, because not everything MBE wrote was totally false. The problem is in telling the difference. I concluded that I would be wiser to spend my energy in learning as much as I could about Jesus, about God, and about the truth from a source I considered to be safe, reliable, and inerrant...namely the Bible. I found that when I tried to sift through and sort through CS teaching, and figure out where it went wrong, I would spend tremendous amounts of time and effort, and not really make much progress.
After I gave my life to Jesus Christ, and accepted him as my Lord and my Saviour, it took me 18 months to come to the conclusion that I could not at the same time believe in Jesus as Lord, and believe in CS. I became convinced that the two were mutually incompatible. The analogy I used in my mind was having one foot on the land, and the other in a rowboat. I needed to make a decision or get all wet!
One of the key - and I really mean KEY - issues that helped me make a decision was the issue of authority. For example, on the above-referenced issue of God as "Mother"...what Biblical authority exists for this? I know of none. There is ample authority for God as "Father", but none that I know of for "Mother". MBE stated, as the basic building block for CS, that the Bible is the ultimate and sufficient authority for salvation. (This is my paraphrase). If the Bible is the ultimate and sufficient authority, where in Scripture is God EVER referred to as "Mother"? By what authority, then, does CS refer to God as "Father-Mother"?
The big picture, to me, is rather than focus on what is good/bad, right/wrong about CS, instead to (in the words of the hymn) "Fix your eyes upon Jesus. Look full in his wonderful face; and the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of his glory and grace."
This is taken from Hebrews 12:2 "Let us fix our eyes upon Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, despising its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God."
If Jesus is Lord, (and he is), and if he is OUR Lord, (and he is), he has full time work for us to do in simply following and obeying him. Luke 9:62 says (in the words of Jesus) "No man, having put his hand to the plow and looking backward is fit for service in the kingdom of God." This was said to the man whom Jesus told to "follow me", and who replied, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family."
God bless you, anonymous, and God grant you the courage to follow Jesus. He loves you, and He will never leave you, forsake you, or give you more than you can handle (with his help). Believe me, I deeply understand the anxiety and sorrow you are experiencing. I will help you any way I can.
My love to you, in Christ,
Carl
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Posted Wednesday, November 13, 2002 8:19 PM
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Dear anonymous,
<< it seems that the posts are saying that there is nothing good about CS. That is hard to deal with. >>
I understand how it hurts to see people saying so many negative things about CS. I loved the religion deeply -- it provided my roots, my sense of identity, my culture, my sense of family, and (I believed) my source of Truth. I grieved deeply for a long time after leaving CS, even though I had begun to see many areas where I had been emotionally and spiritually wounded by my years in CS.
A lot of people have been wounded in CS, and you will hear about many of those wounds on a discussion board like this. Many people have been so hurt that they don't want to remember anything specific to CS. They also don't like to think about Christian Science sayings that they now understand to be in disagreement with the Bible. But I suspect that most of those people don't mean to give the impression that "nothing" good came out of CS.
The GOOD news is that the best parts of Christian Science can be found in many healthy, biblically based churches -- without the aspects of CS that so many people have found to be damaging. Those good things include a love for God and the Bible, uplifting music, a sense of community -- to name a few. And, as others have said, a deeply personal relationship with God is also available as a person gets to know the Jesus of the Bible.
<< I do need someone to talk with and perhaps this is not the best place >>
If you'd like to talk with someone confidentially, I suggest contacting Christian Way through the main web site's "contact us" section (www.christianway.org). We'll have someone contact you.
Blessings,
Linda
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Posted Wednesday, November 13, 2002 8:27 PM
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Thank you Carl, for your kind words. I also served as reader in two different churches. I feel like a bit of a hypocrite for even thinking of leaving the church. This is all I have ever known - even though I have questioned many things about CS throughout the years I have never seriously considered leaving. When I started attending the Presbyterian church I thought I could do both - go to this church and still study CS. But increasingly I am conflicted. We live in the south - the middle of the Bible belt - and the CS society here is so small. I love music and when they had to start reading the hymns because we did not have a piano player I knew I needed a change. I now sing in the choir, in fact that is the reason I started attending this new church. I really want to be a part of this church community but can not unless I withdraw my membership from the Mother Church.
My husband attends with me sometimes. He has never enjoyed 'organized' religion but supports me in whatever decision I will make. Although I was a practicing Christian Scientist we always took our two children to the doctor when they were ill. They are grown now and on their own.
God has always been so important in my life. When our son was born there was a serious problem. I do not want to go into much detail but | | | |