 Posted Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:15 PM
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Hi, My name's Clay, I'm a young minister at a church near Prin. Some friends and I have on our hearts the need to outreach to those on the Prin campus. We're not going to debate and force Christianity on them..because that doesn't work these days. We want to do it the genuine way: to befriend them, love them and be there to answer their questions. Our goal is to work hopefully with the small church in town and to hopefully lead some Bible studies down there..hopefully just be a presence in town. I need help though. I need some people who maybe have been to Prin and can give advice on how to reach those on campus and also if any Prin grads still live in the Stl/metro area, i'd love to sit down for lunch and maybe discuss some tact for such an endeavor. Any advice would be excellent and if you want to jump on board for this..let's go...Peace and love to all.
In Christ,
Clay
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Posted Monday, November 27, 2006 10:13 PM
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| the intent is good but i would strongly advise against it. i went to prin. i know what it's like. i was still still too young to have an open mind. it is a culture, a way of life, and for many, all they know due to their upbringing. personally, i loved my education there, and thinking back now, i appreciated it because i was undisturbed. just as i discovered, i had to leave the religion on my own, on my time. even if you go there with no intent of persuasion, no matter how kind or gentle, defensiveness will be strong. the only thing you can do is pray and trust that God is taking care of them just as he is taking care of you and me. frogs25
Fully Relying On God for Salvation
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Posted Tuesday, November 28, 2006 1:25 PM
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Dear Clay:
I am glad that you are not going to Prin to force Christianity on them, because if you would go to a Reading Room and pick up a Weekly Bible Lesson and read the Tenets of CS, you will see that it is based on His Son, one Christ; the Holy Ghost or divine Comforter; and man in God’s image and likeness. I would call this a Christian religion.
I personally find the CS religion to have flaws, however I think their theology while unorthodox is Biblically sound. Likewise I have found other denominations to be orthodox, but they pick and choose Bible verses to back their opinion and this leads to a lot of contradictions and controversies.
I am having a friendly debate with Mike in another room and it is obvious Mike knows the Bible much better than I, but I am hoping that I have inserted enough Biblical verses that Mike will sooner or later conclude through the Holy Spirit that while he may not agree with the writings of MBE that they are Biblical. Even better is that he will conclude that in some cases her viewpoint better expresses some Biblical controversies.
I have set up several small sports Ministries where I participate and read verses from the Bible and then ask everyone their opinion. I try never to correct anyone, but I try to make subtle changes to their answers like – yes, it is all about just being a good person and then I add - and bringing glory to God.
As a young Minister straight out of Seminary, I would hope you are very black and white in your doctrine, however the key words are to be respectful and humble about someone else. If you are to Minister to Prin students, my advice is to read the Bible Lessons with an open mind and pretend that a man such as Martin Luther or Billy Graham wrote the Pastor responsive readings from S&H. I would then pick out a key point and tell people that you sincerely are impressed how MBE expressed this or that and you will hold a talk or a sermon on that. I would then have solid Biblical verses showing support for what MBE wrote. I would read a newer translation, but ask for others to follow along in their KJV and then you can even open up discussion on which translation made the Bible passages easier to understand. I personally find reading Bible stories in the Old Testament much more fun when I don’t read them by myself in KJ, but I do enjoy more so when someone else is reading their version and I follow along in KJ.
I personally had my father lead our Sunday School in NY and my father was very Biblically based, however one problem I had with a Sunday School here in Texas is that I don’t think they taught that firm Biblical foundation and from what I gathered from Frog and others that Prin does not teach that either. If that is the case Clay, then go for it, but please don’t preach your agenda preach God’s and you may find that both you and your Ministry will grow.
I for one appreciate Mike debating me, because this has given me the vitality to want to expand my Ministries too.
George
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Posted Tuesday, November 28, 2006 4:10 PM
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Frogs and George,
I appreciate your advice a lot.
I'm pretty black and white on theology; open, but also I have studied intensely to back my beliefs. I have a degree from a christian college and I am part of the Restoration Movement. If you know anything about the Restoration Movement, we hold the Bible up pretty high. We're practicers of rhetorical criticism. We don't think ourselves as the only Christians, but only Christians. I read the Greek NT and study pretty hardcore. I'm a nerd. I have no hidden agenda what-so-ever than for the students of Prin to find a relationship with Jesus. I don't care if they are going to my church or any other church; I want to help guide them with the Spirit into a relationship with Christ. That's my agenda. As I study their theology as well as the conversations on a Prin forum about theology, I can say with all my heart that they are missing the boat when it comes to making JEsus Lord, especially due to the fact of not acknowledging sin nor the need of his sacrifice on the cross other than an exemple of Christian science in effect.
I have to respectfully disagree with you FROGS on just sitting back and waiting. Jesus hasn't called us to wait for his children to come to him, He calls us to the be His hands to reach out and guide them to him. 1 Thess. comes to mind. We don't know when he will come back, may that be tonight, tomorrow or next year. I'm going to reach out to the students because I'm called to. They are missing the mark of a Christian and we know what that results in. And I have conviction and guilt if I sit back and do nothing. Of course I'm going to use tact; I will love them to death. I plan to befriend them and listen with an open ear. I'm not going to preach to them. People know that preaching to someone when they're not open does not work.
Thank you brother and sister for your advice and thoughts,
Clay
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Posted Tuesday, November 28, 2006 6:16 PM
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Hi Clay,
I want to say thank you for what you are doing. Don't give up and don't waiver! (Easy for me to say, from my little seat behind this computer, I know). But starting right now, I will pray for you and your mission every day.
I'm living proof that you can plant seeds that will grow. In my case, the growth came slowly. I was born and raised in Christian Science and began raising my children in it. I did not attend Principia, but often heard about it. A very persistent Christian neighbor (with her heart afire with Christ) took the same mission as you have embarked upon -- only with my small family in mind.
I thought she was my worst nightmare come to life! In my view, she was rude, way over-zealous and one of those wacky "born-again" Christians who wouldn't take no for an answer. At the same time, she was the best neighbor and friend I have ever had! She watched my children while my husband and I worked nights (because we had no one else nearby to turn to) and I watched hers while she taught Christian nursery school during the daytime. She had two small boys, as did I. Hers were just as "pushy" (in my view) as she was -- constantly singing Christian songs, talking about VBS (vacation Bible school), reading my boys Christian books, and even had Christian action figure toys, which my sons couldn't get enough of. Her high-school aged daughter did a book report on cult religions and, wouldn't you know it, picked Christian Science to write it on and used me as a reference. What a fun interview THAT was!
I was one of those "too nice to say no" people. But inside I couldn't get enough of complaining about her. How dare she evangelize my children! How dare she suggest they go to doctors! How dare she keep leaving Christian books and literature on my doorstep!
She'd invite me to go on long walks with the kids together, and time and again, she'd bring up the Bible and what it means that Jesus died for us. At first, I'd tune it out. Honestly, I didn't understand what she was saying, and I also believed that it was some sort of fantasy or fairy tale to think that Jesus could take away sin. My mother, upon listening to my gossipy complaints, would point me to writings of Mary Baker Eddy which led me to continue to believe that Jesus' death on the cross served only as proof that death was not real and I'd feel reassurred in that. But then, my neighbor would reach out to me again.
After 2 years of this, I found myself in a state of mental anguish. Not because of my neighbor, but because of myself and my own inability to demonstrate the "CS truths" I'd been taught from childhood. My children would get sick or injured, I'd become fearful (or sometimes I'd become fearful first, and then my children would become sick), I'd call a practitioner, spend hours and hours and days and nights trying to find healing and relief for them, only to have them get sicker. I became angry and afraid. My children sensed it and grew fearful themselves. My husband became just as nervous and upset as I was, so we could not find comfort in each other. My neighbor went so far as to threaten to turn us over to the State because she felt we weren't providing proper medical care for our boys. I will never forget her saying one day that when our car is broken, we take it to the repairman, but when our kids are sick or injured, we don't. She pointed out that this made no sense. I just prayed harder that God would heal my children and perhaps help us to find a new home so we could move out of the neighborhood.
I thought that if I had class instruction in CS, perhaps I could demonstrate it better and my childrern would not be sick any more. So, I left my home for a 2 week Christian Science class with a teacher who had recently been removed from the Christian Science Journal as a listed teacher. My parents and fellow Christian Scientists believed that because of that, what happened next came to pass. I believe that what happened next was that God decided it was time I made a radical change in my life, and since subtle hints were not working, it was time for a bomb to go off in my life.
So, while having CS class instruction, I had a nervous breakdown 2,000 miles away from home. I wound up in a hospital with no identification, and was put on very strong medication (which I proved allergic to) for several days -- after never being on any medication in my entire life (30-something years). It took my husband a week to find me and by then, I was a complete mess. Physically and emotionally.
When I returned home, I clung to my neighbor like I'd found a life preserver in the middle of the ocean. I also clung to my psychiatrist and to my primary care physician. While I still didn't accept Jesus as my savior -- I left Christian Science, with my neighbor's constant, non-judgmental, uncompromising help. I lost my relationship with my parents and with my Christian Science community of friends, who I'd known since birth. This time, it was the Christian Scientists in my life who thought that I was lost and needed to return to the CS teachings in order to be whole again. Inside, I didn't know where to turn.
It took many years to get my head above water enough to realized that ONLY turning to God could save me. And, I had to realize that the understanding I had of God in Christian Science was NOT able to heal me. I learned that Jesus would meet me where I was and as I was. I didn't have to be perfect before God could love and care for me. Honestly, that was the best thing I have ever learned in my life -- ever! That same God led me to care for my sons -- to get them medical help when they needed it. I managed to be an ok mom. Not the best, mind you, but ok. God helped me to survive the death of my parents. My dad, before we could ever mend our relationship, and my mom, immediately after beginning to be in contact with her. I believe she never would have accepted me the way I am now. I don't think we would have been able to have a continued relationship. But we missed each other and loved each other very much.
About 3 years ago, after finding this site and after moving away from my good neighbor, I finally found God as He really is. Jesus Christ is my life now. I was totally lost without Him and was nothing. Amazing Grace is real in my life.
I've written all this before on previous threads on this site, but thought rather than try to find where and direct you to it, I'd just give you the short version (OK, so it's not that short. . . ). But the point of telling you all this is that because of where I've been and the gratitude I have for those who have helped me, I have to say to you that no matter what, please work to help those Christian Scientists! They are blind to the help they need, so they probably will not embrace what you offer them. But, if you go with love in your heart and the word of God as your guide, you will be planting seeds, and God will work with those seeds and help them to grow. By offering Christian Scientists what you have, you will introduce the warmth of God's love to them. They have never had the chance to be embraced by it. Not as it really is. And they deserve to have it in their life -- as do their children, and their children's children. God wants them to know Him!
God bless you and if I can help in anyway in what you are doing, please let me know!
Grace
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Posted Tuesday, November 28, 2006 10:57 PM
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Hello Clay,
At one time, I would have doubted the success of your plans/hopes to invite Prin students to a Bible study. But now, I'd say GO FOR IT! Upon reading your plans I immediately thought of Carolyn Poole's testimony on this site (See the Home Page of Christianway.org and click on Personal Stories). Look at paragraph 2 of her story...she was a grandmother before anyone ever invited her to a Bible Study. But it was that personal invitation to join a small group study that got her started on the journey to faith in Christ. You may meet with resistance from the staff at Prin, but if intelligent, thoughtful students notice that your efforts are being thwarted in that way, it may increase their curiosity. These are young adults, many away from home for the first time. When I was that age (& away from the parent who practically dictated my belief system), I was more open to controversial issues than I would have been within the confines of my local church/home. It was in that kind of situation that I finally came out of Christian Science to a personal knowledge of Christ. And it was a quiet, gentle colleague who just lived his faith in front of me whom I finally allowed to share with me about that personal relationship I lacked.
Have you ever read "The Cross & the Switchblade" or seen the movie? Your efforts remind me of young David Wilkerson's earnest desire to lead inner city youth to Christ. It was a really tough go, but he persisted, despite the discouraging words of the doubters around him. Eventually the unconditional love of Christ, as expressed in Wilkerson's steadfastness & unselfish acts of kindness, broke the hearts of hardcore gang leaders in Harlem N.Y.C. which resulted in amazing ripple effects, as you can imagine. Sure, Prin kids may be a far cry from the heroine addicts of Harlem, but we are all as needy of Jesus. My prayers for wisdom/direction are with you.
Barb
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Posted Tuesday, November 28, 2006 11:30 PM
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Thanks, Grace, for retelling your story. It was fun to read all the details about your interaction with the "pushy" neighbour. I guess we've all had someone like that in our life. Did you ever keep in touch with her after you'd moved away, to tell her that you finally understood where she was coming from? I remember being so turned off by overzealous "born-again" people, only to become one myself, I suppose. I hope I wasn't obnoxious about it, but I had to laugh when you described the neighbour children singing Christian songs & talking about VBS. That's how life was for my kids in their early years too. We must have made our neighbours roll their eyes! Now that my kids have been through their teens, I've relaxed alot about details that aren't as serious as I once feared them to be. : ) But I suppose I haven't relaxed much in their friends' eyes. They still refer to me as "Ned Flanders", the pious nextdoor neighbour to The Simpsons!
As an afterthought, I am now watching my adult daughter raise her 2 year old to sing those same songs and to pray for his circle of family/friends each night. This is the same girl who gave me so much grey hair when she was 15! I guess it paid off to be a Ned Flanders.
Barb
P.S. Have you guessed my nationality by the spelling of "neighbour"?
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Posted Tuesday, November 28, 2006 11:38 PM
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Hi Frogs,
I can relate to the description of your years of education at Prin, and how you appreciated it partly because you were "undisturbed". I remember getting a similar, comfortable, protected feeling during my college years (although not at Prin) in ivy-clad buildings devoted to higher learning, but so, so far removed from the realities of life on the outside. Do you think it's always a good thing for young adults to remain "undisturbed" during those crucial, impressionable years? They say that it gets harder to lead a person to Christ the older they get.
Barb
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Posted Wednesday, November 29, 2006 4:07 AM
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Wow, I'd heard of cults "love-bombing" people and breaking up families, but some of the stuff on this thread is a real eye-opener. Thank God that the Christian Scientists don't do that stuff.
Erol
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Posted Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:03 AM
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Thank you Grace, the timing of your testimony could not be more perfect. I think you were taught like most parents teach their kids that their beliefs are the best - period. You were then told idiotic statements, because of their inadequacies not yours. It is like someone is mad at you for not putting in a light bulb and you screwed in the light bulb perfectly, but they never told you to first wire the house for electricity. This is where Clay can show people had to wire their home. I think then you apply the writings of MBE and one can now screw in a bulb in the dark corners of the house and get light.
I am glad that you Clay are so open to other people’s beliefs and that you have taken the time to understand CS theology. Can you give me some Biblical passages that support why there is no sin? I realize how wacky this must sound to most Pastors who are not open to looking at it from a Biblical standpoint. In the CS Tenants, why do you think sin is mentioned so much, if MBE did not believe in it? My guess is that it comes down to simply Biblical support of Life vs. life. Can you also give me some Biblical passages supporting this?
I agree that providing a Biblical foundation is essential. It is vital that people wire the house for electricity.
George
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