 Posted Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:40 PM
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| Clay, I'm sure you've figured out by now that Erol and George are pro-CS.  Can you give me some Biblical passages that support why there is no sin? George, Please take this to another thread if you want to pursue it. It's a different discussion from the one on this thread.
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Posted Wednesday, November 29, 2006 11:04 PM
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Clay,When discussing biblical issues with your Prin friends, it's important to get them to really think about what the Bible is saying and how that compares to what Mrs. Eddy is saying. If Mrs. Eddy claims to have illuminated the Bible, her words should not contradict the Bible while they are spiritually explaining it (clarification is one thing -- contradiction is another). Remember, when talking with a CSist, that he probably doesn't really understand how different his use of biblical and secular words is from your use of the words. Mrs. Eddy has built a language barrier around him by redefining the words while claiming to clarify them. I can remember having conversations about the Bible with Christian friends when I was in CS and thinking that we were in basic agreement on certain issues. Only after I got out of CS did I realize that we had agreed about almost nothing. For example, I thought my friends and I agreed that "Jesus died for our sins." Of course, my CS interpretation of the phrase was that Jesus SEEMED to die to prove the unreality of sin, sickness and death, and to prove that there is NO breach in man's relationship with God. That's a far cry from the biblical message that Jesus really did die to pay for our sins and to repair a very real breach in our relationship with God -- but I couldn't see it because I thought CS had given me a more spiritual (but not contradictory) interpretation of the phrase. |
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Posted Thursday, November 30, 2006 9:39 AM
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Grace and Barb,
Thank you so much for your wise words and inspiration; they have really encouraged me. To let you know how the outreach is going. Unfortunally, the local church in Elsah said that "they have a good relationship with the college and the students, so they cannot let us use their building," for a bible study or just a touch point. I was really dissapointed in the ministers decision to reject to teaming up in this effort. We have an EVEN better situation on the horizon, so I will keep everyone up to date on that!
George,
I suppose I don't really understand the point of your question: "Can you give me some Biblical passages that support why there is no sin?" Some verses that come to mind that support the existence of sin are Rom. 3:22-26 (everyone's sinned) and a verses all throughout the OT like Lev. 17:11 that discuss the need for blood sacrifice to be shed for sin. Jesus was the sacrifice, you know that. And I know that John 14:6 says that Jesus is the only way. Hebrews I believe handles the sin situation in great detail when knowing that it is written to Jews.
Maybe I'm missing the point of your questions but sin is throughout the Bible. There's no getting around that. I think we also forget the fact that Christianity is based off of Judaism. Judaism has had sin in their religion for pretty much ever. We just can't change what things mean, since they've meant the same thing for thousands of years. I have a huge problem with MBE or anyone who changs the meanings of words and takes the bible out of context. You sound like an intelligent man and probably have studied the Greek and Hebrew; you know the importance in word meaning and context. Christian science is based off of bad hermenuetics and that is not the fault of those who are raised in that boat. But, it is my job and every other Christian's job to help fix that problem. We're the hands of Christ that reach out to those who are lost. You've read Mt. 28. If we want the God of the BIble, then we have to read and understand that same God through that Bible that he inspired; we can't pick and choose what we like, we have to take it all no matter, whether it's convenient or not.
Call me a fundementalist, but our religion is based off of Judaism who invented the methods to good hermenuetics. I know with my heart, that just because we aren't Jews, that doesn't mean that we have to stop studying God's Word in context.
By the blood of Christ,
Clay
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Posted Thursday, November 30, 2006 11:03 AM
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Thank you Clay for putting me on such a high plateau, but I don't come anywhere close to deserving it. A Pastor told me all he knew about CS and I laughed and said that it not what I was taught. He then gave me the book, The Four Major Cults. About half the quotes were from a book by two men who basically tore into MBE for being a woman. The other half were arguements like - "no sin" - well there are passages all over the Bible about sin, she must be an idiot for saying there is no sin. Well I went back and studied the Bible to why she said this and now I embrace the CS theology. I don't care if you embrace the CS theology or not, but I would think it would help your Ministry to Prin of studying the Bible (which I also totally embrace for all to do). I have a lot of respect for what you say about the Jews, because that is my other Crusade. I don't appreciate it when Christians feel the urge to tell the Jews that they are wrong and this is what they should believe. Do you know why the mature Jew does not believe that Jesus is the Christ? Do you know why the Christian Scientist feels that the Christ within cannot sin? I am asking if you can support this Biblically as I would appreciate the reference points too as I have said I too need to know the Bible better.
George
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Posted Tuesday, December 05, 2006 11:40 PM
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| clay quoted this earlier I'm going to reach out to the students because I'm called to. They are missing the mark of a Christian and we know what that results in. I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how to respond to the overall goal clay wishes to acheive. I have typed and deleted this one paragraph several times, and I am torn. Part of me desperately wants to help you in your crusade, but i have got to be honest with you, going to Principia is not the way to do it. For many who attend there, Christian Science is all they know, and no matter how much you keep saying you are not going to preach, to them, any introduction to another approach to understanding Christ, is an intrusion. I'm sure half the students back in their minds have those remaining nagging sunday school questions the sunday school teacher cound never outright explain, and those are the students that will have the open mind. I was one of those student....but you would never have guessed it...part of the CS org, dormitory metaphysical head, went to hymn sing etc... For me Prin was very academically challenging, and I needed to focus on my studies, an i know that if there were someone like you coming to prin to out reach about the right way to be a Christian and getting to know Jesus the real way and not the CS way, I personally would be very interested in that BUT BUT BUT one I would get too interested and get distracted from my studies, two get even more confused and delve even deeper into the philosophical realm, and third and most important, others, my peers, my professors, the CS community would pass some serious judgement (even though CS's don't do this). I also think that Prin is like a "Home" away from home, so still you are not able to be free yet. I think your outreach would be more appreciated if there was a way you could figure out how to meet them where they would be in a comfortable setting off the campus. This would allieviate a lot of pressure off both you and the prinos. Ohh Ohh, I know....The cool hang out for people when I was there was this coffee shop...I think it's in Alton somewhere. It's a casual atmosphere. I believe its an outreach that may be better suited for when they leave college, but if you can get to an outlet thats outside of prin campus where a lot of prin people hang out, I say go for it. The other thing is, don't expect to get a lot at once, you've got to be able to feel people out and pick out the ones that have a little bit more of an open mind and someone who you can tell is still questioning their beliefs. and above all keep in mind two very important words on you crusade.....PATIENCE and ACCEPTANCE achoooo! God bless you frogs25 FOOTNOTE: By the way...don't befriend......Question lightly instead.....I wouldn't have married my husband if he had befriended me. He was upfront and honest and all he did was question and had extra bundles of patience. If you feel like you have to befriend let it go.
Fully Relying On God for Salvation
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Posted Friday, December 08, 2006 12:00 PM
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FROGS,
I am very torn with your reply. You don't see Philip in Acts 8 not wanting to help convert the Ethiopian Eunich because he was in fear of disrupting his trip back from Jerusalem. In my opinion, for you to say that worrying about a non-christian's academic success at Prin is more important than spreading the cure to the fire of hell to someone is totally contradictory to the Bible.
God doesn't say to spread the good news in concordance with convenience. He says to go and do it.
I could care less if non-christians succeed in college. They still are doomed. Call me old school, hell, fire and brimstone or something, but to water down the truth is terrible. If we believe in the God of the Bible, we believe in the hell and the heaven that he has laid out in that Bible.
I'm a college kid. I'm trained in ministry and sociology from a secular university and a bible college. I have a desire to go into hell and bring people out of it; whether thats convenient, dangerous, absurd or otherwise.
We as Christians can either sit back, watch our far-off christian scientist brothers and sisters dig themselves deeper into a empty religion or we can offer them a safe, helping hand into a personal relationship with a loving God who doesn't want to send them to hell.
If anyone should reach out to those at Prin, it should be those who attended it. Because those who went there are familiar with it and hopefully love the fact that God saved them from a terrible eternal life.
Or we can make Christianity "convenient."
Sent,
Clay
Ps. I apologize for the emotion but moderate Christianity messes up everything for those who try to practice Christianity as an extremely loving life-style and faith.
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Posted Friday, December 08, 2006 1:43 PM
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Clay,
I understand and emphasize with your frustration, but directly approaching most Prin kids (and CSists in general) will usually have the opposite impact you seek.
As a CSist, I was probably as resistant to Christian messages as I would have been to Communist or Nazi messages. Christians were perceived as enemies with nothing valid to offer and therefore were ignored or actively counteracted. In the teachings of a typical CSist, Christians are the ones with their eyes and hearts closed to the true meaning of Scriptures.
Establishing relationships is the key. Meet them at the coffee shop and other venues. Honestly engage them in relationships independent of doctrine to earn the right to discuss doctrine. Learn about their theology. As a five-point Calvinist, I believe in predestination in that it is ultimately the Holy Spirit who elects and empowers conversion. Our duty is to be ready, willing, and able to engage the elect as we are mutually called.
I don't know if you've run across the story of the most effective active evangelist I encountered as as CSist. What made him effective was his obvious knowledge of CS and ability to relate that to Scripture in a credible, non-threatening manner.
Do Go Be Man
<><
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Posted Friday, December 08, 2006 2:32 PM
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I heard something on a Christian radio station the other day that relates here, I think. It was so helpful to me at the time, that I pulled over in the car and wrote the direct quote down and put it somewhere for safekeeping. Unfortunately, I can't remember where I put it . . . . . sorry. But the radio show was discussing effective witnessing to those who are not Christians and the statement was saying, in effect, that people will trust what we say to be true when they truly know us as being true people. In other words, it's hard to bring the good news of Christianity to someone when that person doesn't know us enough to know that what we say is true. So often, Christians are so sure of what they know and so eager to share, that they try and impart it to someone they know too soon in their personal relationship with them. You don't have to have an intimate relationship with the person, but you have to have some sort of history established with the person in order to be able to know how to meet that person where they are.
That is particularly true with Christian Scientists, I think. Anyone witnessing to a Christian Scientist needs to have a pretty good knowledge of Christian Science first, I believe. As a Christian Scientist, I believed that people were opposed to Christian Science mostly because they didn't know about it. In many cases that was true. After all, I had studied it for my entire life and still wasn't entirely "versed" in arguing either pro or con regarding Christian Science. How, then, could anyone outside of the religion hope to convince me that Christian Science was wrong? If someone I trusted approached me with a good knowledge of my religion when I was a Christian Scientist, I would have been more apt to listen to them if they chose to speak against it.
Clay, I believe that this site (and each of it's sections) offers you a great place to learn about Christian Science and it's teachings. The free tapes offered may also help, if you'd like to request a set. Christian Scientists have posted many times offering rather good descriptions of Mrs. Eddy's teachings. Also, Linda's book, the Religion that Kills, is a wonderful resource. (I confess that I don't know how to include links here, but I'm sure you can find the book easily on amazon.com or someone will provide a link). I don't believe a careful study of Science and Health (also found on amazon.com) is in order, but at least a quick look-see is pretty important, as well as a familiarity with the terminology Mrs. Eddy uses. Then, of course, many biographies of Mary Baker Eddy are available. If you have questions as you check anything out, feel free to pose them here. You might get helpful answers from both Christian Scientists and ex-Christian Scientists.
Do-Go is right in his analysis, in my view. A sincere effort to know someone and where they are coming from goes a long way. God directs us to love our neighbor as ourself, and has good reason for doing so. But how can one do this honestly without knowing the neighbor and becoming vunerable enough to let themself be known? (Remembering to put on the armour of God that Paul speaks so eloquently about).
Your deep wish to help comes through so clearly in your posts and I am so very grateful for it. It is a good and noble purpose. I trust the Holy Spirit will guide you.
-- Grace
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Posted Saturday, December 09, 2006 9:43 AM
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Do Go and Grace,
Thank you for your words. I completely agree with both of you that there needs to be a trust factor there. The idea has been called "cultural commission before great commission."
We have a local church to sponser a bible study, so that's pretty exciting. It's 3.4 miles from the campus.
I'm studying CS as much as possible right now. I have the tapes, S&h and have read many posts on here.
We do need help in the area of:
1) where do the prin students hang out?..there's been word of a coffee shop..where is that located, anyone know?
2)I would love to get together in the mid-west with an Ex-CS and discuss CS and Christianity. I'll drive down there, spend a day and pick that person's brain. That first hand knowledge would be amazing.
Thank you all so much for the help and encouragement. I would love to team up with you in the efforts. I'm trying to do my best to use tact in this situation and I am very open to criticism and recommendations.
In Christ,
Clay
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Posted Saturday, December 09, 2006 7:18 PM
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