 Posted Friday, December 01, 2006 6:02 PM
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Hi Everyone,
Since I've been reading and posting on here (a few years now), I've noticed that a lot of people who post and have recently left Christian Science are very clear on the idea that they want nothing to do with God. Not just nothing to do with religion, but God as well. I've been thinking about that lately, and have remembered that I was the same way myself.
For me, it was a sense of being afraid of God. For lots of reasons -- fear that He would turn me away because I was no longer a Christian Scientist, for one. Another was that I was afraid that God didn't really exist and that I was foolish to even believe that He did. I was also afraid that I may have been praying wrong all along. The deepest and most painful fear was that God was not Love, as I had learned Him to be in CS, but that he was also prone to be angry, hold grudges against us, might send me to hell for all sorts of reasons.
Did anyone else experience such feelings or am I way off base? Also, does anyone have any ideas on how to help someone with such fears before they spend so much time trying to make it on their own, without God. I've never been one to try and convince someone of God -- but at the same time, I don't want to miss an opportunity to really help someone turn to Him when He wants so much for them to know His love as it really is.
Actually, now that I think of it, maybe for some it's not so much fear of God as it is anger at Him. But, even in that case, the anger can only be dealt with by having a relationship with God rather than turning away from His existence, right?
Anyways, just wondering if anyone had any thoughts. Thanks!
Grace
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Posted Saturday, December 02, 2006 5:37 AM
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I know that for me my departure from CS and belief in God sort of went hand in hand...and not in an angry, violent way; I just noticed one day that I hadn't thought about religion or God for years. I knew so many people who talked about the importance of spirituality in their lives (many for whom it is a top priority), and realized that it had no place in my life at all. Again, it wasn't an angry thing - it wasn't about fear of God, anger, anything. Whatever faith and belief I'd had just wasn't there anymore, and I hadn't even missed it. To this day I don't. And I freely admit under some circumstances this may change for me. For one thing, the idea of raising atheist kids is really depressing to me. Kids should have something to believe in; they should feel there's order in the world and some greater power looking out for them. Honestly I'd fake a belief in God just for the sake of the kids. And I know that after a lifetime of belief in God, if I ever found myself in a life threatening situation, out of habit I'm sure I'd start praying. But deep down I'd know I'm just talking to myself.
The thing is, this isn't sad to me. I don't feel lost or alone without God. I feel fine, and have for many years. I've learned to become self-reliant and handle things by taking human steps - I've learned to comfort myself (or seek the comfort of loved ones) during bad times. I've learned to be grateful and to really value human life and all the wonderful things it has to offer (which was hard to do under CS, when everything in the world was supposed to be mortal mind and bad). I've learned to trust my own wisdom and instinct based on life experiences. The best thing about not believing in God is not having to ask, when something bad happens, why He let it happen to me (or, in CS, what negative thoughts did I allow into my consciousness that caused the bad thing). It's very freeing to me to look at a bad occurance, illness, etc as just "stuff happening" that happens to everyone, and you'll get through it. We're not alone in experiencing illness and trials. That, to me, is a far more comforting concept than there's a God but the bad thing was either a) His will, b) not real, or c) brought on by our sinful (or lazy) selves (thoughts). I've felt a lot less guilt since I stopped believing in God, and honestly, have been a lot happier.
I'd like to say that I long for the days when I had that strong, undoubting faith, but I don't. I think of belief in God and CS as just something from my childhood that I outgrew. I don't mean by this to sound condescending to other people's beliefs; everyone has their own way. That's just how it feels to me.
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Posted Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:44 AM
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| Grace, I think there is a certain category of people one can find in Christian Science for whom the choice boils down to either Christian Science or atheism. From what they have read of other forms of Christianity and other religions, they conclude, consciously or unconsciously, that they cannot accept the existence of any conception of God other than the one articulated in Christian Science theology. Also, as I was reading your post, I thought of statements I've read by ex Mormons on certain internet sites where they said that they became atheists or agnostics after leaving Mormonism because they felt they were burned once with Mormonism and that no other form of religion seemed as perfect to them as Mormonism had. Therefore, rejecting religion altogether seemed to them to be a reasonable choice. It seems that when one looks at a person who leaves a denomination or a religion one can find that person taking one of several trajectories, the two basic ones being that one stays in the orbit of religion or one tends to reject religion.
tmcl
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Posted Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:58 AM
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Anonymous (12/2/2006)
I've learned to be grateful and to really value human life and all the wonderful things it has to offer (which was hard to do under CS, when everything in the world was supposed to be mortal mind and bad).
Anonymous, Christian Science does not teach that everything in the world is "mortal mind and bad." As a dedicated Christian Scientist, I too "really value human life and all the wonderful things it has to offer." In fact, I feel that Christian Science has enhanced my appreciation of human life. Getting back to the topic of this thread, I wanted to comment on something else in your post. You say that you believe that children should be raised with a comforting belief in God even if it is a belief that is not true. This is something that I can't accept. I don't think it is ever valuable or helpful for adults to teach children that something is true when the adults themselves believe that there is no evidence for it.
tmcl
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Posted Saturday, December 02, 2006 8:19 AM
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Very interesting observation. I missed the discussions here of a CS God versus the orthodox God, which I assume CS believes in an all in all, all knowing and all powerful God versus a God who sits back and reacts to His creations. Also in simplified terms, I have always seen CS and Mormonism on opposite sides where CS is great in theology and poor in practibility and Mormonism is great in practibility, but poor in theology or in other words CS is all about pre-destination and Mormonism is all about works. I really admire the Mormon family structure. Moreover and to the point of this topic, I have found in the Bible studies I led that the people most tuned out to a Bible study is someone who was extremely involved in outreach and/or went on multiple missionary trips. When they leave the Church, they leave the Church. However, I found the majority of people left, because their Church doctrine was too structured, which leads to having members who are hypocrits and I found these people who left would be open to more accepting theology or maybe better said someone who would listen to them and their problems.
George
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Posted Saturday, December 02, 2006 4:26 PM
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Hi, tmcl -
I know from reading a lot of these posts that you're a main championer of the CS cause here, so I don't want to get into an argument over what CS teaches and what it doesn't. To me so much about CS is not what's actually written or taught but what what's written and taught implies. Having been raised in CS since birth, for me it was impossible to be constantly trying to overcome the mortal body and its limitations, the world and its false beliefs, etc, and being told all material existence is just a mental suggestion that we need to demonstrate our way out of, without concluding that our material bodies and the world around us aren't, somehow, bad. It's this line of thought that leads to the guilt everyone is talking about, that you're somehow "not trying hard enough" when an illness doesn't abate or a problem doesn't get solved, etc. CS never tells us this - it's just a natural conclusion. This to me is the main problem with CS. I spent most of my younger life arguing my religion with people, and found what I most often said defensively was, "yes, but Christian Science doesn't say that," or "that's not what Mrs. Eddy meant," or "that's not Christian Science." I now see that all these things may be true, but none of that matters - it's how the human brain processes what CS teaches that makes it wrong, and therefore ineffective (much of the time). And my main interest (in life, and being on this forum) is more what happens to children who are brought up in families that have this belief system - how their emotional & physical needs are ignored, the guilt, the isolation, and the loneliness. I find this all very interesting and that's why I'm here, since it's something I've experienced.
As far as it being wrong to raise children with a belief you, as the parent, don't have - what about Santa Claus? What about the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy? Some parents may not want their kids to believe in these mythical figures, but for those that do, what's the harm? I think as a child you should be able to believe in magical things, whether they're real or not. That's one of the joys of being a child. To me (not to insult anyone here) that's how I believe about God.
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Posted Saturday, December 02, 2006 7:05 PM
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Grace,
I don't ever remember feeling afraid of God. In fact, I would say that the love of God was taught well to me in CS. When I left the religion, it was because of the growing certainty that the teachings were simply not demonstrable or cogent. After spending years as an agnostic, I was brought back into religion because I wanted my little boy to have a background in the faith. As I grew to understand Christianity in a completely new and different way, the feeling of being loved by God came right back to me. The difference is that now the love of God is connected with my real life, and there is a reason for my humanity.
I have also never felt like God was angry at me, and I haven't actually ever felt angry at him. But I did feel anger at the pain the practice of CS caused in the lives of my family members. And what I was turning my back on was really just CS, but I didn't know that. My distaste for church was profound...but I knew no other way.
I had a great deal of fear in my life, but it was, quite simply, fear of living. I had no coping skills to deal with the ups and downs of living in a human body. Sickness honestly almost terrified me. I now knew CS would not heal me, and I had no experience with the whole world of medicine. In a way, although it is hard to explain, the years I spent with no thought of God as real at all, may have been a bit of a blessing....I finally learned to rely a little bit on my own human strength! Once I began to receive beneficial medical treatment for various things, the whole spector of illness finally began to lose some of it's dark control over my life. I still, however, deal with the residual effects of CS. I always dread doctor appointments, the onset of illness always fills me with foreboding, and I worry excessively about the side effects of medications. I have come to accept that this will be with me to some degree for the rest of my life. That is why it is so comforting to me to know that God sees my human fear and cares! God is so much more 'reachable' than was ever taught to me in CS!
I am glad to be back in church, and to understand so much more now the point of the Bible. I regret the years wasted in CS. But I really do understand people who leave CS and move away from religion altogether.
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Posted Sunday, December 03, 2006 5:50 PM
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I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post in this section any more, or if it was only on one particular thread. Anyway, if it's the former, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Certainly I think atheism is the most coherent alternative to Christian Science. Either God exists, or evil exists. I don't think you can have both.
I am sure that, whether a person believes in God or not, he or she would do their best to bring theiir children up as principled, intelligent, creative, non-materialistic, vibrant, honest and loving.
I don't think Santa and the tooth fairy should outlast a child's ability to dicriminate between fantasy and reality. My own discovery, at the age of nine, of Santa's true status was a devastating blow. (After all, he was the only metaphysical entity for whom there was empirical proof--he left you stuff on Christmas morning...)
Erol
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Posted Sunday, December 03, 2006 6:49 PM
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Erol,
I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post in this section any more, or if it was only on one particular thread. Anyway, if it's the former, I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Due to issues in another thread, we have found it necessary to add a level of moderation to certain topics and certain posters. A notice regarding that will be posted.
Do Go Be Man
<><
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Posted Sunday, December 03, 2006 7:02 PM
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Dawn Comes,
You said it all when you said that you had a fear of living! That's what I had! I never thought about it until you described it that way, but I WAS afraid of living when I was in Christian Science, and then also the first year or so being out of Christian Science. I felt like there was no net to fall into below the tight wire. Perhaps that is what I was trying to describe in starting this thread. Thanks! And, thanks everyone else for your posts. Helpful, indeed!
Grace
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