Posted Sunday, August 19, 2007 4:35 PM
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| Shelly, I'm glad your father's story turned out well.
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Posted Sunday, August 19, 2007 8:40 PM
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"......are seeking help from a bunch of flawed people using an imperfect healing system."
May be apples and oranges, but I remember you writing that 'medicine comes from God." I admit I painted you into a corner on that one. (I needed a declarative statement from an evangelical believer on this subject.) If I was geekier, I'd find the post here. I just think that if this is the case, He'd have done (and be doing) a better job (with fewer TV commercials).
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Posted Monday, August 20, 2007 6:19 AM
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| God did give us the ability to create and use medicine, just like he gave us the ability to create and use other tools. People have managed to misuse many of the tools and talents given to them by God, but that doesn't mean that the tools and talents themselves are bad. We live in a "fallen" world, and as long as there is sin in the world there will be misuse of God's tools. I teach chemistry, and every year I try to give my kids a new perspective about how most people think about "chemicals." We have all heard people cast "chemicals" in a negative light when talking about the environment or about certain products or foods. I tell my students that, when someone talks about how bad "chemicals" are (casting all chemicals in a bad light), they should warn them about a dangerous chemical that's in the environment. It's everywhere and can kill a person in less than 10 minutes if used improperly! It's so pervalent in our environment that it would be impossible to get rid of. Of course, I'm talking about water (or dihydrogen monoxide if you want to use its "chemical" name). Everything we see and touch (except for light, of course) is made of chemicals. So "chemicals" are not, in themselves, a bad thing. What makes many chemicals "good" or "bad" is how we use them. The same thing can be said about medicine. Some of them are helpful and some are not, some are used well and some are abused -- it's all in how we use them. Like other chemicals, they are tools. God gave us these tools and the ability to use our tools to create other tools; we choose whether to use these gifts wisely or unwisely.
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Posted Monday, August 20, 2007 8:05 AM
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| My prayer would be that after sustaining a gash in my leg from a fall that the doctors in ER would be washing their hands sufficiently. I see where Medicare is no longer paying for 'errors' in hospitals or for the doctors making them. I really don't see what all this has to do with 'tools,' however. Somehow it seems natural and somehow easy for ex-Christian Scientists to connect God with medicine (and its 'tools'), as ironic as this seems to be, but is not. Also, I don't necessarily 'avoid' doctors (I can't speak for the 'others like' me). In fact, I'm having cataract surgery next month. I think 'rationalization' is the greatest tool used by man. Whether this comes from God still remains a mystery.
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Posted Monday, August 20, 2007 8:49 AM
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| Perhaps we're not connecting on the way I'm using the word "tool." Here's a definition from the online Merriam-Webster dictionary: Tool: 2 a : something (as an instrument or apparatus) used in performing an operation or necessary in the practice of a vocation or profession <a scholar's books are his tools> A chemical or medicine can be used as a "tool" the same way a book can be used as a "tool" -- it's the thing used to accomplish the task at hand. The doctor in the emergency room uses the chemicals we call soap as a "tool" to kill the germs on his or her hands. He or she might use another chemical that happens to be designated as a "medicine" to kill other germs. Christian Scientists use soap to "clean" their hands or a skinned knee , but they wouldn't consider using other chemicals like rubbing alcohol or iodine because these chemicals have a medical connotation. I understand their reasoning, but when one really thinks about it the soap, alcohol, and iodine are just chemicals -- equally nonspiritual if one admits that they all serve the purpose of killing germs. You imply that former CSists tend to give special power to medicine and doctors. I don't think this is the case at all. Since I consider God the Creator and the one who gave us the intelligence to use the atoms he gave us to build with, then I consider him the reason we have any of the chemicals we use, whether they'er "just" soap or whether they're "medicine" -- or, for that matter, a really good chocolate cake that someone figured out how to mix and bake. It's not a "former-CSist thing."
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Posted Monday, August 20, 2007 10:40 AM
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| All, Today is not a day during which I feel inclined to tread lightly regarding CS. I'm feeling its negative impact on my life and my CS family members especially hard today. This would be a real good point to stop reading if you don't want to read a harsh posting on CS. It will be much easier for you to "know the truth" if you don't read the truth. An easy way for CSists to reconcile their beliefs with those of our's who left CS is to assert that we never got it and that we now worship medicine. I don't recall CSists adequately addressing the credentials represented by the former CSists on this forum. We have former practitioners, many of us were class taught, our time in CS was measured in decades, our activities included being Readers, other church leadership positions, and some of us were active at the international level working at times directly with the TMC Board of Directors. If we never got it, that is also an indictment of the various CS teachers, branch churches, and TMC organizations that accepted our doctrinal qualifications. If we never got it, we should have never been allowed to serve in such positions. Fact is, I did get it. God created us and our environment. He gave us His word and His Son. He loves us beyond measure or comprehension. That is real, however, not my vain imaginations or "Adam dream". CS claims to be based upon God's word, but denies its reality and accuracy at every turn. God revealed to me through my study of CS that His word is accurate and reliable. MBE taught otherwise, so I turned to the reality rather than the counterfeit with no regrets. As to the claims of worshipping medicine, there is far more basis to that claim for CSists than for non- and former CSists. CSists spend their lives in mortal fear of something they claim has no power. Yet, they continue to eat, drink, sleep, breath, wash hands, wear glasses, and engage in other mortal functions including acquisition of wealth. Not a one from MBE to this day has risen above the mortal plane. Maybe there's something worth exploring and preserving of CS, but at this point I'd say that they are doing the same thing and expecting different results (yes, if you're familiar with that definition I do mean that). Do Go Be Man <><
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Posted Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:30 AM
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Linda and Do Go,
Great points. 'Materia Medica' took on such ominous proportions in my childhood home that it never seemed to occur to my mother that the (acceptable) ice packs and hot water bottles given for pain catered just as much to soothing unreal sensation in nonexistent matter' as aspirin would have.
I agree completely that the credentials of those on this board who have left CS behind are not addressed. My mother did not come up with the idea of 'radical reliance' all by herself! I assure you that, if she were still alive, she would consider those who level the definition of a 'culture' which misunderstood the teachings to be practicing watered-down CS! And her teacher, who wrote to her that she should not, as Sunday School superintendent, permit the attendance of a certain handicapped child whose presence would cause the other children to be confronted weekly with a 'false picture', was a huge name in the movement.
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Posted Wednesday, August 22, 2007 6:39 PM
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...who wrote to her that she should not, as Sunday School superintendent, permit the attendance of a certain handicapped child whose presence would cause the other children to be confronted weekly with a 'false picture'... That's SO sad.
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Posted Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:30 AM
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Besides Arden Wood, which is the most expensive, there are two other CS nursing homes in California that I know of, one in Walnut Creek (whose name eludes me) and one at this website:
http://www.mthelixgardenscsnursing.com/
I have been to the one in Walnut Creek several times and can say that while the staff is caring and the setting beautiful, it has no actual medical care beyond basic hygiene and meals.
However painful it is to watch your mother suffer, I'll bet that at this point, she is so wrapped up in CS that it would be more painful, mentally, to take medicine than to suffer physically. To abandon CS would be to admit that she has been wrong for her whole life, that the system on which she based every decision she has ever made is flawed. Any ex-CSer can understand what a frightening idea this is. She probably knows that the hospital will make her better, but to acknowledge that is too great a leap to make.
If you are really concerned with her happiness, let her go to the nursing home, no matter how absurd it seems. At least she will be surrounded by people who share her beliefs. Trying to change her will only drive her away from you- just offer to help her in any way you can and be there if she needs help quitting CS. If this illness doesn't get her away from CS, I can't think of anything that would.
I am an ex CSer with a mother who is not ill but definitely capable of this sort of behavior, should something happen to her. I have given up hope of her changing, and just pray I am able to deal with it should it happen.
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Posted Thursday, April 03, 2008 9:01 AM
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This has been quite a hair raising thread. My heart goes out to the original poster. *hugs* I feel that I am walking in your shoes. Congestive heart failure is fairly common and you are right, the problem is well contained with medications and changes in lifestyle...diet and exercise.
My now estranged CS husband has the same thing. *sigh* When he had a heart episode and described it to me I asked him to go to the emergency room. Clinging to his S&H he just walked away from me. Over the next 8 weeks he declined to the brink of death...is family begging him to go to the hospital. It was horrible to watch the suffering. He did go, on the verge of death. In 24 hours they had the water drained out of him and with heart regulatory medication he looked great. But he felt he was a failure. He couldnt get the healing. A lifetime practicer of CS and he still couldnt seem to practice it well enough. Neither could his practitioner I guess. So some months later he decided to stop taking the meds..so he could be "more spiritual" down he went again...all the fluid building up...eventually gasping for breath. He started the meds again and was looking better...till he stopped them again. This time it was very bad. He went to the local CS nursing home and after several weeks there, slipping away, suffering, he had a stroke. One of the meds he had been taking prevents strokes...but, he stopped that so he could get his healing. He ended up going to the hospital again. Guess it was pretty difficult in the CS home when he couldnt walk. This time he was worse and he needed more medical care...but he is up and around and doing well on meds...for now.
My mother-in-law used to talk about "MATERIA MEDICA" as if doctors and scientists (not CHRISTIAN SCIENTISTS..real scientists) were the spawn of the devil or a multinational corporation run by Darth Vader, so you know my husband feels really really bad that he has to take this medicine..even though it helps him and the CS doesnt seem to. He feels just like the someone in this thread who made a statement about CSers feeling that they would rather die than submit to the evil materia medica and shouldnt we all understand that? Well NO!!! WE DONT!!!! Let me see now...take this pill everyday so I dont get a stroke...or die? Oh Id rather die than eat a pill. I dont need to eat these chemicals to live...but I DO need to eat my breakfast lunch and dinner to live...pass that diet coke please...the one with the nutra sweet in it. I dont want to get cavities of fat....OH, wait a sec...I have to get my glasses to read the label on that can...I want to be sure its not saccarine...that makes me get a headache.
I only wish that all of you avid followers of MBE make it out the the prison of the mind that you are in see the light of day, where you can think your own thoughts, feel your emotions, have sex without guilt, and understand that if your warts suddenly disapperared...it wasnt a healing...its what warts do. The Sentinel could turn over all that wart healings space to real problems that its flock is suffering and dying with every day ..like congestive heart failure...if they can find anyone who has been healed of it.
Square Peg
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