 Posted Thursday, March 06, 2008 11:18 AM
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Leonarde, First I'll spell out the verse for reference: 12 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. (John 12:14, NKJV) People tend to focus on Jesus' healing ministry when they think of his works, but Jesus did a lot more than heal people. Overall, his "work" centered around glorifying God through his life and actions. He spent a lot of time teaching about God and the "kingdom of heaven" (eg., through the Sermon on the Mount), caring for the needs of people (as when he fed the multitudes rather than send them away hungry, and demonstrated God's mercy to the woman taken in adultery), and training leaders for the church he was founding. He challenged the religious leaders and standards of his time (eg., cleansing the temple, challenging the pharisees' hypocrisy). His works culminated in the crucifixion, through which he paid for our sins and opened the way for true fellowship between God and those who are willing to follow him. Salvation for mankind was, of course, his greatest "work." When Jesus said that people who believe in him will do the works that he does, he didn't just mean that they would go around healing people. His final instruction to his disciples was to "make disciples of all nations..." (Matt. 28:18-20), and that is what the members of the early church did and his followers are still doing today. Healings occurred but were not the primary focus; spreading the gospel and establishing the Christian church was the focus. Miracles occurred within that context and as a validation of the gospel that the Apostles were sharing -- not as an end to themselves. And when Paul was not granted a healing for his "thorn in the flesh," he recognized that his lack of healing was within the will of God (2 Cor. 12:7). My point is that, while healing can occur if God grants it, the continuing and "greater" works of Christians involve glorifying God -- by spreading the gospel, maintaining and nurturing the Christian church, showing God's mercy to others (through charity work, forgiveness, etc.), growing in their character and relationship to God through Jesus Christ, and so on. |
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Posted Thursday, March 06, 2008 12:27 PM
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| Linda - I like the points raised in the reply to the CS person and completely agree. I also found the phrase "because I go unto my Father" very revealing after I left CS because it seems to imply that any "works" that we do will be enhanced as He will be sending the Holy Spirit to us and God will also do things for us when we ask in Jesus' name. These words often seemed to be missed out when I was being brought up in CS - no wonder, because they just wouldnt make sense in the CS way of thinking.
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Posted Thursday, March 06, 2008 3:03 PM
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Leonarde:
Let me just add to what Linda said and mention that there are numerous other verses in Scripture which substantiate the view that physical healing in mortal life is not guaranteed in the atonement and that it is not always God's will to heal. The apostle Paul couldn't heal Timothy's stomach problem (1 Timothy 5:23) nor could he heal Trophimus at Miletus (2 Timothy 4:20) or Epaphroditus (Philippians 3:25-27). Paul spoke of "a bodily illness" he had (Galatians 4:13-15).
God certainly allowed Job to go through a time of physical suffering (Job 1--2). In none of these cases is it stated that the sickness was caused by sin or unbelief. Nor did Paul or any of the others act as if they thought their healing was guaranteed in the atonement. They accepted their situations and trusted in God's grace for sustenance. It is noteworthy that on one occasion Jesus indicated that sickness could be for the glory of God (John 11:4).
Finally, there are numerous verses in Scripture which reveal that our physical bodies are continuously running down and suffering various ailments. Our present bodies are said to be perishable and weak (1 Corinthians 15:42-44). Paul said "our outer man is decaying" (2 Corinthians 4:16). Death and disease will be a part of the human condition until that time when we receive resurrection bodies that are immune to such frailties (1 Corinthians 15:51-55).
Am I saying we shouldn't pray for healing? No, not at all. I'm just saying that after we've asked for healing, we need to submit to God's sovereign will ( a personal God, not the God of Principle that Mrs. Eddy invented). He may have a purpose in allowing our illness.
Best wishes,
John
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Posted Saturday, March 08, 2008 9:54 AM
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I came into the discussion this morning because my heart is heavy for my mom who has been a practicing CS for many years. She is living with me at the present time and has been pressing me to attend a lecture on CS healing. I've been a Christian for 20 years now, having grown up in CS. She will get quite defensive if I even hint that her teachings are false. I'm wanting to say something to her re healing and loved what you said "we need to submit to God's sovereign will ( a personal God, not the God of Principle that Mrs. Eddy invented). He may have a purpose in allowing our illness. " It grieves me that she is under such blindness and have been praying diligently for her, as have many other brothers and sisters in Christ. One question: would you consider attending such a lecture, perhaps in the hopes of opening up conversation? It seems to me to be dishonoring God to sit under such falsehood. Will not attend church with her either, even tho she has asked, of course knowing I'm deeply involved in a wonderful Bible believing church.
Thanks for bringing this up in your post. As usual the Lord works by bringing me where I need to be each day.
God Bless.......
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Posted Saturday, March 08, 2008 10:28 AM
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thankful4truth,
One question: would you consider attending such a lecture, perhaps in the hopes of opening up conversation? It seems to me to be dishonoring God to sit under such falsehood. Will not attend church with her either, even tho she has asked, of course knowing I'm deeply involved in a wonderful Bible believing church.
I would consider attending and would not consider it dishonoring God. Jesus came for those who need Him. He associated with more falsehood and sin than we can ever imagine.
Many years ago when I was deeply into CS, I invited my preacher's daughter grandmother to attend the CS Thanksgiving Day service with me. My great grandfather was nationally known for his sermons against CS. I was surprised she accepted the invitation. She was most gracious about it all. The result was it made me more curious about her beliefs and what they had to offer. Took a while for me to come out of CS even so, but it did impact me in a positive manner.
Do Go Be Man
<><
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Posted Saturday, March 08, 2008 1:54 PM
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thankful4truth, I would certainly consider attending the CS lecture and even CS church services once in a while, with the idea of opening up opportunities for discussion (assuming that you don't find the CS lectures and services to be emotionally distressful, as some former CSists do). And then I would invite the CSist to some special events at my church. |
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Posted Saturday, March 08, 2008 2:28 PM
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Linda,
Thanks for the input. I'm wondering too why I find the thought of attending so appalling. Clearly it would not in the least cause me to doubt my beliefs. However, sitting and taking in such falsehood (it is a cult) makes me wonder how I would handle it. I wouldn't consider going to a Jehovah's Witness meeting or Hindu events either. Jesus is Lord and they don't understand this, but I know they are deceived and can't believe unless God takes away their blinders. He did with me, and now can't imagine ever believing such lies. This is driving me crazy, living with her and not being able to witness. Our relationship would be in jeopardy, however my relationship with the Lord is above all. Sorry to ramble, just frustrated, and thanks for listening. Maybe you're right - it messed me up so much in my growing up years that hearing it again would cause me too much distress.
Thanks so much for being there and willing to talk. Really isn't anyone who understands except those who have been through it.
In His Love,
TFT
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Posted Sunday, March 09, 2008 1:05 PM
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| thankful4truth, My heart goes out to you, as it would be deeply frustrating to live in the presence of CS without being able to say anything about it. With that said, it seems to me that your mom is, in essence, inviting a religious discussion by asking you to attend her CS lecture. If she "witnesses" to you by taking you to a CS lecture, she should consider it "fair game" for you to witness back to her. I suggest that you gently point this out to her and see if she still wants you to attend the lecture. When gaining freedom from CS "triggers," it's helpful to recognize that you don't have to "take in" the falsehood. It's possible to listen to it with a clinical attitude rather than internalizing what is being said. (I say this as one who took a long time to get to the point of being able to do this -- I'm not saying that you "should" or "should not" be to this point.) The more I faced CS and saw why it is wrong, the less it was able to affect me. What I'm trying to say is hard to describe in a few words -- I hope I'm being helpful rather than confusing.
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Posted Thursday, April 03, 2008 11:34 PM
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| In regards to Mrs. Eddy's statement on healing, it must be remembered that in 1903 Mrs. Eddy created a "Board of Missionaries" consisting of seven members...esentially a group that was qualified to give hypodermic injections of morphine to Mrs. Eddy for the condition of "renal calculi" (kidney stones). This, taken from the Calvin Frye diaries in the book, "Mary Baker Eddy The Truth and The Tradition by John Dittemore (former member of the Board of Directors of the Mother Church). Also, neither Mrs. Eddy nor Augusta Stetson (head of the First Church in New York City) were able to heal their own husbands. So there you have it.... draw your own conclusions.
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Posted Saturday, April 05, 2008 9:30 PM
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zoarean (12/26/2007)
Because of the CSists ignorance of medical science, they don't know that there are about 130 common cold viruses that we gain immunity from as ourimmune system fights them off over the course of our life. Thus the reason that many CSists claim that it was"Divine Science" that haslessened the frequency of their colds as they grow older.In reality it was the divine science oftheir body's God-given natural function that works despite their ignorance.
zoarean
Not in any way trying to be rude. But that seems a bit general...Even Christian Scientists get the Discovery Channel...And not all of them hit the mute button every time someone says "medical..." O.o Just saying. Seb.
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