Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed
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Posted Friday, April 18, 2008 7:24 PM Post #14448
 

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Accepting the hazard of reigniting discussion on evolution, I'd like to recommend a movie I just saw - Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed.

While I'm not as set in my ways regarding evolution as you may expect, I was fascinated by the presentation of the consequences in the "scientific" community of pursuing any data that does not support Darwinism. My recommendation has more to do with the stifling of science than the merits of evolution vs. intelligent design vs. creationism vs. etc.

The movie reminded me of times as a CSist when I posed difficult questions in the belief that query itself is healthy not evil and serves as the basis of science, Christian or otherwise. Questions appropriately addressed should serve to strengthen faith not demonstrate a lack of faith. In teaching, I often say that the only stupid question is the unasked question. You never know what you may learn trying to understand something you don't understand.

If faith in MBE, Joseph Smith, Charles Darwin, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Jesus Christ, or God is so weak as to be incapable of honest exploration perhaps that is reason enough to rely upon works or deny faith. Having explored the worldviews of each of them and many others, I am comfortable where I stand.

Should anyone choose to contribute to this discussion, may I respectfully suggest addressing the suppression and repression of scientific or theological inquiry rather than amoebas to monkeys to man, which we have beaten to death in other threads? I don't mean to sound immediately hypocritical, however, those other threads would be the more appropriate venue for such discussions.

Do Go Be Man
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Posted Saturday, April 19, 2008 7:38 PM Post #14450
 

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I just saw the movie and I highly recommend it. It's a fascinating look at how the scientific "establishment" in America is trying to silence colleagues who raise legitimate questions regarding Darwinism and dare to publish scientific evidence suggesting that there may be design (not purely random chance) in nature. The movie is a sobering commentary on how freedom of thought and expression are being stifled under the guise of science. 
Posted Monday, April 21, 2008 8:32 AM Post #14460
Anonymous 
I have posted here before several times, and read the forum often, but I am not comfortable logging in with my usual username for reasons of anonymity. Not too many people have my profession, so I really wanted to reply to this thread.

I am an evolutionary biologist conducting research at a major US university, making me a member of the scientific establishment discussed in Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. I am also a Christian.

Whenever a conversation of this nature comes up, the first thing I always ask people is to imagine having a conversation with a stranger. The stranger asks, "What do you do for a living?" You reply proudly that you got your Ph.D. in evolutionary biology and now you have your own research program. Typical responses: "So, does that mean you believe in evolution?" or "Sorry, I don't believe in evolution because I am Christian." I have also heard silence, gasps/shock, and laughter. As far as I know, no other scientific profession has to deal with this.

The purpose of science is to make observations about the world around us, to study our observations with testable experiments, and to explain them with explanations (forgive my CS-speak here) limited to the material world. I believe that God exists and that He does perform miracles, and that some things are not explainable by science; however, I am not going to try to explain those things in my research because that is not within the realm of science. Science and religion operate in separate spheres, but that is not to say that you can have a complete life with only one.

Any reputable evolutionary biologist will freely admit that Darwin didn't have all the answers. We don't even use the word "Darwinism" because that implies that evolution proceeds exactly according to his theory of natural selection. While natural selection is a component of evolution, Darwin had no idea of how heredity worked (even though Mendel's book was on his shelf, he never read it).

Let me tell you what it is like living in this community. Among my colleagues, I would say that about 25% are atheist, 25% agnostic, and 50% practice some religion (we come from all different cultures so not all are Christian). We never talk about our religions except with our closest colleagues because the subject is too touchy. Yes, there are evolutionary biologists who get very angry about religion, but I doubt they would feel that way if they hadn't been pushed into a corner. Most of us do not agree with Dawkins, but most of us do feel sorry for him that he was falsely informed about the purpose of Expelled when he was interviewed. All this controversy has done is to make an entire group of religious people unable to discuss religion at all in their workplace. I am sure that a lot of Christians are going around patting themselves on the back about this movie, but frankly it makes me sick.

There have been many great scientific achievements in evolutionary biology that will help people all over the world. We provide the initial research for many projects that end up as medical research like disease evolution (have you ever gotten a vaccine?) or agricultural research (enjoy that cereal and cup of coffee!). Oh, and please don't use anything that consumes off-shore oil because evolutionary biologists and geologists (another scandalous profession to many) helped find the deposits. In the future we will be instrumental in helping the wildlife in our planet through climate change (whether you believe it is caused by man or not, climate does change) and the future of medicine (gene therapy and personally-tailored medications). We keep working on this because of our love for biology even though we are vilified by people benefiting from our work, and it does not preclude a love for God or whatever religion we have.

In terms of what was posted:

"I was fascinated by the presentation of the consequences in the "scientific" community of pursuing any data that does not support Darwinism."

We have many, many papers that do not support Darwinism. Anything that says that the major mechanism of evolution is NOT natural selection doesn't support Darwinism. Biologists generally recognize four major forces of evolution: mutation, migration, selection, and genetic drift. There are thousands of papers supporting mutation, migration, and genetic drift as major mechanisms of evolution, and the rise of the neutral theory of evolution in the 1960s is a great example of a huge scientific controversy in our field that went against Darwinism. I guess what you really mean is that we don't pursue data that doesn't support intelligent design. The reason for that is that you can't test those kinds of experiments. They do not generate any scientific controversy. If we concluded that the entire world is designed, where would that leave science? There would be no point in pursuing further inquiry. (If you want to talk about the watchmaker's analogy, specified complexity, or mousetraps in further detail, perhaps in a later post...)

As an aside, putting the word scientific in quotes is what got me riled up enough to post here. Our field IS scientific. Science REQUIRES the ability to test whatever force is at work in your study system. As a Christian, I think it should be obvious from Jesus' second temptation (Matthew 4:5-7) and when Jesus quotes Deut 6:16 that "You shall not put the Lord your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah." We aren't supposed to try to get God to do tricks for us, we aren't supposed to understand the way God works and when He chooses to fulfil our requests. It is our own limited understanding of God's plan that prevents us from ever being able to test Him. As a Christian, I believe that we should always try to understand Him, but I am not going to try to do it through science.

"It's a fascinating look at how the scientific "establishment" in America is trying to silence colleagues who raise legitimate questions regarding Darwinism and dare to publish scientific evidence suggesting that there may be design (not purely random chance) in nature. The movie is a sobering commentary on how freedom of thought and expression are being stifled under the guise of science."

This actually made me pretty sad because I think you are a chemist, right Linda? How do you think it is possible to test for design/God in molecules so that other chemists could repeat the experiment in their own labs? There is certainly a place (and a great demand) for written material about God's presence in the world, but is the best place in a scientific journal?

I am aware my views may not be popular here, but please keep in mind that the scientific establishment you are against is not the same as being against atheists.

-A biologist
Posted Monday, April 21, 2008 9:06 AM Post #14461
 

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A Biologist,

Many of the points you make are quite valid. I'm concerned, however, with the concept that anything that can't be tested must be ignored.

From my bias, I don't understand how the mathematics of the species works out without some intelligent designer. Virtually every society except that portrayed in Expelled has some explanation for life that involves some sort of ID. The probabilities involved to accept chaos as the designer use up too many zeros and I've never seen evidence such as transitional species to demonstrate it. Yet, anyone who tries to fit ID into their investigation appears to be considered a flat worlder.

Have you seen or do you plan to see Expelled? I'd be interested in your perspective on actually seeing it though that sounds that it may be like suggesting I go see Fahrenheit 911 or An Inconvenient Truth.

Do Go Be Man
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Posted Monday, April 21, 2008 11:32 AM Post #14462
Anonymous 
Do Go,

I am planning on seeing Expelled, mainly because I teach evolution at my university and I need to be able to give thoughtful answers to questions my students have about what they have seen or heard about evolution and intelligent design in the media. In fact, I spend one week in every semester discussing this controversy because I think that my students should understand both sides of the argument before deciding what to believe. We read material from I.D. proponents and evolutionary biologists, study a few court cases, and watch clips from documentaries from both sides. Some students come into the class knowing nothing about it and others have their minds made up already, one way or the other.

Unfortunately I think the idea that biologists ignore faith/religion/spirituality has been perpetuated by some of our most outspoken colleagues like Dawkins and Stephen Jay Gould. I personally don't think that a human life is complete without trying to understand the "big questions" about why we are here that religion answers. It's a limitation of science that it can't answer these questions, in fact, I think it takes away from the mystery of religion to say that it can be explained like a science experiment.

In a way, I don't see why there isn't as much controversy about physics and the origin of the universe. You don't hear many people complaining about the Big Bang Theory, even though it doesn't provide a role for God. There are no vehement protests about the hypothesis that there may have been some form of life on Mars at one time (even though the Bible doesn't discuss life on other planets).

The problem I have with intelligent design being published in scientific journals like Science, Nature, or Evolution is much like the problem physicists have with string theory (here is an article from the New Yorker about the problem) but to quote it in short: "For more than a generation, physicists have been chasing a will-o’-the-wisp called string theory. The beginning of this chase marked the end of what had been three-quarters of a century of progress. Dozens of string-theory conferences have been held, hundreds of new Ph.D.s have been minted, and thousands of papers have been written. Yet, for all this activity, not a single new testable prediction has been made, not a single theoretical puzzle has been solved. In fact, there is no theory so far—just a set of hunches and calculations suggesting that a theory might exist. And, even if it does, this theory will come in such a bewildering number of versions that it will be of no practical use: a Theory of Nothing."

If someone could come up with an empirical way to test for the presence of design, then it would have a place in science. So far the only way that has been proposed is Dembski's specified complexity test (Wikipedia article) which has been refuted not only by biologists, but by mathematicians and information theorists.

There is certainly a place for faith and a belief in God. To me and many other biologists (and any religious person), that faith is much more important in the grand scheme than science. As former Christian Scientists though, we should be especially aware of the fact that sometimes science is invoked and given power in places where it shouldn't be. Claiming that you can prove intelligent design is no more valid scientifically than MBE's claims that being healed of a cold proves Christian Science. You can't put faith in science the way you put faith in God because nothing in science is absolute truth.

But I will let you know what I think of Expelled when I see it.
Posted Monday, April 21, 2008 11:51 AM Post #14463
 

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A Biologist,

Your perspective on Expelled is and will be interesting.

In a way, I don't see why there isn't as much controversy about physics and the origin of the universe. You don't hear many people complaining about the Big Bang Theory, even though it doesn't provide a role for God. There are no vehement protests about the hypothesis that there may have been some form of life on Mars at one time (even though the Bible doesn't discuss life on other planets).

Big Bang Theory doesn't bother me so much because I figure it's an attempt at explaining what we can see of the beginning of Creation. From our perspective, I imagine that speaking the universe into being created a fairly significant bang that we can only partially comprehend. In a minor way, it's like the blind men trying to describe an elephant. Big Bang is just dealing with bigger data. Scientists who pursue Big Bang also don't seem to treat it as a Law. Science has few laws and I don't think Evolution or Big Bang are included.

Life on other planets doesn't bother me. I figure God is big and mobile enough to get around as He needs. I would be more surprised to find He limited life to Earth than not.

There is even a large church that has belief in extraterrestrial life as a tenet. Each male adherent of their denomination is said to have the potential of being a messiah of his own planet if he does everything outlined for him by their faith. Can't say I've found the Biblical basis for that one yet.

I heard an interesting paradox recently. As scientists see deeper and deeper into the building blocks of life, they see design and deny its relevance. As astronomers conduct searches for extraterrestrial life, they view chaotic patterns as potential intelligence.

Do Go Be Man
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Posted Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:57 AM Post #14464
Anonymous 
To Biologist,
I am so glad you took the time to write. I think what you wrote was very clear and I don't know what the recent discussions on this site have been but this post really helped me a lot with an internal conflict I had today. This is because I am an RN and have valued a 20 year career, although unable to practice at this point, and I have been trying to study Christian Science for 2 years now, and feel like I am being split apart. Members in my extended family whom I love very much are CS, and I grew up in that environment at times and found it had Truth in it . I have also seen 2 members in that family die for what appear to me as unusually early and probably unnecessary deaths.
I am so encouraged by your defining science as something we can test and then the scripture you correlated about not putting God to the test. This is what I had felt in my life so far, that I helped treat physical conditions and that there was another dimension but it wasn't material science. I just can't believe that what I have done in the past 20 years was wrong or not acceptable to God, yet in CS it appears that although I am willing to practice and be open to that view point, my experience is continually devaluated. Thank-you for your perspectve and showing respect for God and science. Anonymous
Posted Wednesday, April 23, 2008 7:53 PM Post #14469
 

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A Bioloist,

Thanks for sharing your perspective on the issue.

Typical responses: "So, does that mean you believe in evolution?" or "Sorry, I don't believe in evolution because I am Christian." I have also heard silence, gasps/shock, and laughter.

That has to be REALLY frustrating.

How do you think it is possible to test for design/God in molecules so that other chemists could repeat the experiment in their own labs?

I don't "test for design/God in molecules," but I certainly don't ignore evidence for design just because it doesn't fit the current scientific premise that science shouldn't recognize a designer. And I can certainly study molecules without having to assume that they were NOT designed.

Science REQUIRES the ability to test whatever force is at work in your study...

Unfortunately, much of the science in question can't be repeated in anyone's lab. We'll never be able to recreate the conditions under which life first emerged. We'll never be able to recreate the the Big Bang to determine whether it could have really happened. We'll never be able to reproduce the deposition of sediments and dead animals all over the earth to prove exactly how and when they happened. We can't bring small pieces of debris together in space quickly enough to prove that that's how planets are formed (which is what I heard on a science program yesterday). My point is that much of what science addresses cannot be directly tested with experiments.

That's why, as you know, much of scientific interpretation involves proposing models (mathematical and otherwise) and testing those models to see whether they can accurately describe or predict the data. If the data don't fit the model, then the model has to be discarded or modified until it fits the data. A good example of this is our description of the atom. We can't see individual atoms, so over the years scientists have proposed a series of models to describe what they think atoms look like. Those models been revised as more data has become available (Bohr's model was great for hydrogen but doesn't adequately describe the data we see for more complex atoms).  Right now the quantum mechanical model is serving scientists fairly well although it's not perfect.

Evolution also involves the use of models. (I'm talking about the slime-to-man part of evolution here, not natural selection which is easily observed). As you pointed out, Darwin didn't have all the answers -- that's why you and others have expanded his model. Creationism also involves models, as does Intelligent Design. From a scientific standpoint, none of these models can definitively answer the question of how the life came into being. Each (including the evolution model) is best evaluated by comparing the data we have to what the model predicts. The evolution model says that life and its diversity happened without any outside influence, while the intelligent design model says that an outside influence played a part in the diversity we see. Each model is an equally valid starting point from which to evaluate the data; the "unscientific" models will be disproven if the data do not support them.

What REALLY bothers me about the theory of evolution is that it is being presented to the public as FACT rather than as a a working model -- and its "factual" nature is being promoted to the point of being indoctrination. For example, last time I visited a small but prestigious science museum in our area there was a dinosaur exhibit designed for school children. It had a dinosaur literally surrounded by birds. The big message of the exhibit was that dinosaurs evolved into birds (never mind that the study of dinosaurs is interesting in its own right...). Soon after that I visited the new amphibian exhibit at our local zoo. The main focus of the exhibit (in bold letters, displayed over the cage) was "EVOLUTION" -- as if the amphibians had to be viewed not for their own interest but in terms of their part in the evolutionary chain. And in school, the slime-to-man concept is pushed in the books as if it's a proven fact and not a working theory.

I own a copy of the DVD The Priviledged Planet, a fascinating documentary which lines up several pieces of scientific evidence suggesting that "the conditions that allow for intelligent life on Earth also make it strangely well suited for viewing and analyzing the universe." While such a collection of evidence cannot prove that the universe was designed, it would certainly be bad science to ignore the possibility of design simply because it doesn't fit one's premise that the material universe has to be the result of random forces. On a side note, my son wanted to share the DVD with his 8th grade class, but when he offered it to the teacher she immediately (and without discusing the matter with him) gave it to the principal, who sent it on to the head of science curriculum for the entire school district -- who agreed that it was a great DVD but nixed it because there was one line near the end that raised the possibility of a creator.

There have been many great scientific achievements in evolutionary biology that will help people all over the world. We provide the initial research for many projects that end up as medical research like disease evolution (have you ever gotten a vaccine?)

I truly applaude your advances. I know that much has been done to document and use mutations. But (and this is a sincere question) has anything been done to turn amphibians to reptiles or birds to mammals? Mutated bacteria fall within the "natural selection" realm, but the real issue at the root of the evolution-creation debate is whether life happened on its own and whether reptiles can really breed their way into birds.

If someone could come up with an empirical way to test for the presence of design, then it would have a place in science.

Perhaps science also needs to come up with a good explanation for why the study of nature has to assume that no design was involved. As I suggested above, nature is fascinating and can be studied for what it is; its origin doesn't make what it is any less fascinating. The eye is a marvelous piece of equipment -- no less marvelous and interesting if it is the product of design than if it just happened by chance. In either case, it's worth studying.

Posted Sunday, May 04, 2008 5:54 PM Post #14533
 

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[Moderator's note: this message was originally posted in the Recovery and Health Issues » Attitudes and Impact re. Sickness and Wellness in Society and CS thread]

Posted by Rosebud3 May3, 2008 @ 8:18:52 PM

Do Go Be Man,

I saw "Expelled no intelligence allowed" today. I know people have mentioned this in other parts of the forums. I wanted to say the part that stood out to me was when they showed the hideous concentration camps where people who were "disposable" due to illness etc. were killed, cremated.It goes with the theme I started about illness and the impact it has on society. Someone with a disability would definitely be eliminated.

This is still interesting to me in how MBE in her time was trying to create some system that was ultimate, absolute and would heal people. Unfortunately it appears that it created in many cases a culture of fear and denial. Perhaps we need to learn to love and care for those we would otherwise ignore. 100 years ago sick persons were placed in poor houses which were awful places where contamination and fatal illness spread amongst innocent children. Poverty seems to go hand in hand with illness. I actually worked in a community long term hospital that was originally one of these poor houses for the disenfranchised.

I think this is all interesting relative to MBE's period. The Civil War was involved, women's rights were just beginning, also African Americans and the underground railroad, to mention a few. Perhaps today her view on things would be different.Just thought this was interesting.Perhaps it could bring some perspective to this whole thing. Also, the church had a major role in caring for the sick, but that has seemed more recently to be put in the hands of the hospital. My Pastor had to have special permission to see me in the hospital related to hippa. Let's make some room for these thoughts. Perhaps we can learn something.
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