 Posted Thursday, December 18, 2008 4:07 PM
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Hello,
I am relatively new to this site, having recently left CS after growing up in it. I do not mean any offense, so please forgive me if I offend any of you. These are questions I have never gotten satisfactory answers to.
* My question is why do we need organized religion at all?
* Is it just for the sense of community?
* Why would an infitinite God give his creation (man) only one way to get to him? -- There are many routes up a mountain, but none of them is more 'right' than another. One might be easier, but that doesn't make it better or more right.
* If we are all on a 'straight and narrow' path, isn't it ours, and ours alone? Why do we need a church or particular religion to get us there?
* Weren't the people who 'wrote' the Bible trying to work things out just as we are? I am not sure I buy into the idea that a bunch of people from long ago were any more spiritual than we are now. What we read in the Bible is what they wrote on a particular day, who is to say that they didn't completely change their thinking the next day and not write it down for our convenience today?
* How can anyone want to belong to any religion when you look at all the horrible things that have been done in the 'name of religion'?
* If Jesus died to atone for my sins, then what is there for me to learn? What sins have I committed?
* If we're really all born sinners, then what was the point of Jesus' experiences? Why are any of us born, if our sins have already been atoned for, why not just save time and skip being born in the first place?
Thank you for considering these questions.
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Posted Friday, December 19, 2008 10:04 AM
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Hello,
First of all let me say it's awesome that you decided to up and leave CS like that. It's a hard decision to make, but in the long run it'll be worth it. My parents made that decision years ago and believe me, I'd be pretty crazy if they didn't. It's also even more awesome that you're asking questions like these. Six years ago I posted something similar on an Internet chatroom and that night I gave my heart to Jesus, which was really exciting! Anyways, I'll do my best to answer your questions, though I'm not a theologian by any stretch of the imagination. Here we go...
Why do we need organized religion? Is it just for the sense of community?
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world" (James 1:27).
Now let's be honest: our world has religion all wrong. It's not just all about "doing rituals and then being okay with the big guy." Religion is about blessing other people in need and yes, having that sense of community. As followers of Jesus Christ, it's important that we stay accountable to one another in hopes of not getting corrupted by the evil desires of the world (pre-marital sex, drunkenness, hatred, violence, etc.). And yes we all have those desires. I have them, you have them, even the Pope has them! But in Jesus Christ He gives us a new heart with new desires, and no it's not easy. Quite honestly it's a war, but that's why that sense of community is important.
Why would an infitinite God give his creation (man) only one way to get to him? -- There are many routes up a mountain, but none of them is more 'right' than another. One might be easier, but that doesn't make it better or more right.
If we are all on a 'straight and narrow' path, isn't it ours, and ours alone? Why do we need a church or particular religion to get us there?
Let me give you a scenerio: the house you are in is burning to the ground. Flames have surrounded you, when suddenly a firefighter comes in and says, "Come on, let's go! I know the way out!"
The house is this world and the flames are our sin. Our sinful desires, though they may feel good will seriously kill us. They will consume us and will be our downfall, but God the Father sent us one way out: Jesus Christ. He's not just the "true perfect example" of what we should live our lives by, but He knows the Way out. How? Well number one because He's God, and number two because He lived it.
"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet was without sin." (Hebrews 4:15)
So this verse says Jesus faced the same desires we face on a day to day basis: pride, greed, lust, jealousy, etc. but not once did He ever cave into those desires and let them affect Him in a negative way. So He knows what it's like to not only be Holy, but to live Holy. No other religion has done this. In her life, Mary Baker Eddy struggled a lot with anger, pride, and other issues and yes she did sin. It's not some illusion, she actually did. Buddha sinned too, as did Mohammad, Joseph Smith, L. Ron Hubbard, all those guys, but Jesus Christ never sinned. The Bible is chalk full of testimonies from people who walked and talked with Him. There are historical documents of people who walked and talked with Mary Baker Eddy too, and they recorded some of her flaws. Look that up if you don't believe me.
Weren't the people who 'wrote' the Bible trying to work things out just as we are? I am not sure I buy into the idea that a bunch of people from long ago were any more spiritual than we are now. What we read in the Bible is what they wrote on a particular day, who is to say that they didn't completely change their thinking the next day and not write it down for our convenience today?
What I absolutely love about the Bible is that yes, it is full of people who are just like us: not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Noah was a murderer, David was an adulterer, Solomon had hundreds of wives and hundreds more prostitutes, Peter was a liar and a pushover, Paul murdered Christians, Rahab was a prostitute, etc. This also proves that honestly these people were not making this stuff up, especially in the case of the Gospels of Jesus Christ. If you read it, you'll find that all the disciples, especially Peter were complete idiots! But all of it is honestly and accurately recorded in there. Who told you they were more spiritual than we are? I don't think they were by a long shot. They struggled with doubts just like we do. They denied Jesus Christ just like we have. Many of them also died, just like thousands of people today also died because they refused to deny the authority of Jesus Christ. Why? Because how could they under intense, excrutiating Roman persecution deny the fact that they saw the same man, Jesus Christ who died the world's most painful execution method, three days later interact with them. Also how could they deny the fact that the tomb itself was empty! The evidence was right there in Jerusalem for all to see! Trust me, they didn't write this stuff down for "our convenience." If it was for "our convenience" they wouldn't have recorded such controversial things like: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Mark 8:34) or "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one can come to the Father, except through me" (John 14:6). I'm sorry, but those things don't sound convenient. They sound controversial.
How can anyone want to belong to any religion when you look at all the horrible things that have been done in the 'name of religion'?
Yes there were terrible things that were done in the name of religion, I can't deny that. The Crusades is something that forever plagues Christians nowadays, but remember there were also horrible things in this world done in the name of atheism too. Hitler banned all religions and had mass Genocides of Jews, Gypsies, Witches, etc. because of what they believed in. Stalin was also an atheist, and had terrible things done in Russia in the name of atheism as well. You need to understand that these horrible things that were done in the name of Jesus Christ were not because of flaws in Jesus Christ Himself, but because of the flaws of His people. Many of the pain that I've caused since walking with Jesus were because of mistakes I made, not because of mistakes Jesus made. But once more thank God through Jesus Christ that He still loves me despite my flaws. He still loves you too.
If Jesus died to atone for my sins, then what is there for me to learn? What sins have I committed?
Good question. I don't know your heart, so I have no idea how many sins you've committed. Let me ask you this though: have you told a lie? It doesn't matter how big or how small, we all have. Have you ever stolen anything? Most of us have. Have you ever lusted after someone? Definitely all of us have.
What we have to learn in this is that we're sinners. Not only that but we have to learn how not to sin and how not to walk in the ways of this world. Believe me, it's not something that happens overnight. I know people who have been Christians for decades and still screw up. Look at this scripture:
"I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." (Philippians 3:10-14)
This scripture was written by Paul, the man who was chiefly responsible for the Gospel of Jesus Christ spreading to this Western world. Yes Paul is set free through Jesus Christ, but if you read this scripture you'll find Paul saying that he wants to know Jesus Christ fully, but he's not there yet by a long shot. However he presses forward and refuses to go back. That's what makes following Jesus so fun and exciting! Every day is a new day in Him! Every day I get to interact with Jesus Christ in a whole new and more exciting level than the previous one. I get to dig deeper into what makes Him God and what makes me need Him more. Jesus Christ dying for our sins is the truth, but it doesn't mean that our journey in Him stops. It keeps going, and going, and going, just like that crazy Energizer bunny.
If we're really all born sinners, then what was the point of Jesus' experiences? Why are any of us born, if our sins have already been atoned for, why not just save time and skip being born in the first place?
Gooood question. Jesus' experiences were meant for a variety of things. One of them is of course, because He paid the price we owe for our sins. Another reason is because He wanted to show us how to live Holy in Him. The third reason, which is the most exciting reason, is because He wanted to use crazy people like you and me to work for Him! This is the last thing God needs to do because He's God. He can make rocks do the same thing that we do. However for some strange mysterious reason God actually wants to use us! It's not because we're awesome, it's because He's awesome. He wants us to keep advancing His kingdom. His desire is for the whole world to be saved, and He chooses to work through us! He chooses to work through a crazy guy like me who absolutely hated life and hated God. I used to be depressed, cutting myself and wishing I was dead all the time. I struggled with impure thoughts if sexual immorality all the time. I didn't have the necessary skills to follow Jesus. I probably would've either ended up in jail, dead, or in some insane asylum somewhere, but God chose me, rose me up, cleaned me off and took all the primary desires I had in me to rebel against him. Yes I do have some desire in me, but the cleaning process of God is just that: a process! I think it's because He's a loving God. He doesn't force Himself on me, but shows me what I need to know when He knows I'm good and ready.
So there you go...answers to all those questions. They're probably not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but they are true. My friend, God loves you. He desires for your affection so much, but we are all sinners. God hates sin, and because of that we are separated from God and deserve that separation. However out of true grace, God sent His only Son, His pride and joy, Daddy's little boy, to die for you. To die for me, for Osama Bin Laden, for Hitler, for Britney Spears, for Pope John Paul II, for Billy Graham, and yes even for Mary Baker Eddy. She refused to embrace that reality, and said that whole idea was absolutely insane. Others choose to embrace that reality and surrender everything to Jesus Christ. What's your choice?
God bless,
Steve
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Posted Friday, December 19, 2008 1:48 PM
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Wow.
Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Your answers all made much more sense to me than anything else I have ever heard, especially the ones telling me to go and read more MBE writings. (Because as we all know, the more you grow in CS, the less 'important' those questions seem.) I'm very grateful for all the time you put into anwering each question, and I will work to be as clear in my own convictions as you seem to be in yours.
Thank you.
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Posted Friday, December 19, 2008 5:55 PM
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It's the power of God, my friend. Nothing else.
God bless,
Steve
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Posted Saturday, December 20, 2008 1:37 PM
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| Dear Anonymous, So glad you've seen through the false religion of CS. And, apparently, all on your own! It took me several years to acknowledge an accumulation of errors, inconsistencies, logical fallacies, and historical myth to deeply accept that "this stuff is all wrong!" But that left a spiritual void, and there are any number of otherwise non-Biblical and and pseudo-Biblical religions out there Like you, I kind of "went looking" for a religion that made sense, at least to me, in that it was comforting and practical and had a logical consistency. Much to my surprise, I stumbled on "the way, the life, and the truth" by attending (out of curiosity) a Billy Graham crusade. I was born again then and there--a phenomenon I had previously derided as being just a psychological peak experience or something. Since then, I have learned that following Jesus is not just a matter of putting together some pleasing concoction of religious & philsophical ideas that I like ("cafeteria Christianity"), but progressively conforming to Christ, rather than having religion conform to my predilections. As I look over your questions, I note that you start with a philosophical view of things that is still very influenced by CS. Which is quite understandable. In time, you will understand that many of Eddy's starting points are non- and even anti-Biblical. I don't want to create too burdomsome a post, but I'll give a few illustrations: Universalism: "There are many routes up a mountain, but none of them is more 'right' than another. One might be easier, but that doesn't make it better or more right." This is a favorite analogy of those who deny the unique office of Jesus Christ as Savior. It's awkward to human logic, but the Bible is straightforward on this: " For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (I Tim 2.5) "Anonymous Steve" above me has shared Jesus as "the way, the truth, and the life." This may strike the human mind as restrictive and intolerant, but that's the way it is. Jesus, only Jesus, saves us from an eternity in a state the KJV calls "hell." Actually, Christianity is the most inclusive of all religions! All that is required is faith in Jesus Christ! No special obligations or rituals or secret teachings or people group or anything! The Bible calls all believers in Jesus to be priests--not just some specially annointed bunch of men! But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
I Peter 2.9Jesus has hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; A low view of the Bible: Weren't the people who 'wrote' the Bible trying to work things out just as we are? I am not sure I buy into the idea that a bunch of people from long ago were any more spiritual than we are now. What we read in the Bible is what they wrote on a particular day, who is to say that they didn't completely change their thinking the next day and not write it down for our convenience today? In the 1800s the Bible came under attack by so-called "Higher Criticism," which basically chucked the idea of divine inspiration and conceived of Scripture as of purely human invention. This is the issue of "source criticism," "text criticism," "historico-literary criticism," and so on. This is a humongous and complicated matter, but Eddy bought into ideas such as multiple authorship of the Pentateuch, various "Paul" "Pauline" and "Paulist" sources for the didactic epistles. This is the kind of insidious nonsense you get from "The Jesus Seminar" and the like. I stand by Paul's admonition, All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness All scripture! Eddy liked to play both sides of this matter. Note the subtle ambiguity (or is it duplicity?) in the statement, "We take the inspired word of the Scriptures" (italics added). It looks like she subscribed to the doctrine of the Bible as "inspired" and therefore inerrant! But a closer reading reveals that she held that some of the Bible was inspired...and lots it wasn't! That allowed her to use her metaphysical "science" to decode it, and inform us what really came from God, which parts came from men, and what it all really meant! Eddy held that the Bible was rife with error, and this was compounded by multiple translations. Not so her own writings! She held (or at least, allowed to be held by not challenging staements otherwise) that her writings--especially S&H and the Manual--were given to her by God and she had to study them daily! I've gone on enough for one post. Hope these thoughts are helpful. Poke around the threads more, if you like, but be sure to check the reference pages linked off Christianway's home page. And start reading your Bible! Consider getting a modern translation, like the NIV or the RSVB. You'll find things that you never saw before! Pray for understanding, because there's a lot of CS in your thinking, which will be corrected with prayer, more Bible study & devotions, and time. Hope to hear more from you! PS--why not register, get a username, and distinguish yourself from all the other "Anonymous" posters?!
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Posted Saturday, December 20, 2008 5:12 PM
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Ok. I registered! 
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Posted Sunday, December 21, 2008 1:03 PM
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Hi Seeker! Welcome!
I am Anon Steve's mom and asked him to answer your initial questions because I felt he could do so better than I could. I can certainly relate to what FollowingHim wrote above and I hope that you find encouragement in his words. Please be aware that writing on this site is also of great benefit because many of those who read your posts (even those who never answer in writing) will begin praying for you. You need not feel that you are "alone" in any of this. I have been praying for you since first discovering your post.
One thing that means so much to me since leaving C.S. is the freedom to pray for others without their "asking" for prayer.
May I suggest a scripture which may be helpful? I love the chapter of Isaiah 58 because it tells us what displeases God and also what pleases God. When in CS I believed that I knew what God wanted from me, just couldn't seem to practice it. But this scripture helped me to realize that my understanding of God needed revision and clarifying. I was trying to be "perfect" in a way that God simply was not caring about. Look at the kind of fasting (action) God asks for beginning in verse 6. Also, rejoice in knowing that God promises so much to his people for doing these things. He is faithful and NEVER walks away from His promises because He is God and cannot lie!
I believe that He is guiding you now and His hand is upon you as you move forward. Glory to God for His amazing work! His love truly is beyond measure and wonderful to behold!
May you know His many blessings and may His peace be with you.
Grace
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Posted Sunday, December 21, 2008 5:44 PM
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Posted Monday, December 22, 2008 9:52 AM
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Seeker,
Welcome to our forums! Glad you are here.
I haven't responded to your initial message due to a series of personal crises. In the midst of these crises I have seen constant evidence of God's love and care. Much of the evidence has come from the members of my church that hold up those involved through prayer and tangible acts of love and support. Were we not active members of Christ's body, I'm sure that God would find a way to perform His works. Being active members of Christ's body, however, enables my weakness to better comprehend God's works.
That said, I can also fully understand your concern about the need for organized religion. I've had my share of exposure to the down side of religious communities including Christians, Jews, Muslims, Pagans, and others. Were I to judge all organized religion based on those adherents rather than those such as my current experiences, I'd be singing right along with John Lennon - "Imagine there's ... no religion too".
Mahatma Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." I agree with Gandhi completely. I have mere seconds per year that I feel at all like Christ. Yet, I muddle along as best I can with His help trying to associate with those with similar ideals and known weaknesses. It's the ones who claim to be Christlike that often worry me the most. I gave up on the concept of being God's Perfect Child this side of Heaven. God knows me too well to get away with that and can be very good at reminding me.
G.K. Chesterton wrote, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." Community in the body of Christ is part of the Christian ideal. The Bible describes the Christian community as part of Christian life from the very beginning including Revelation that includes letters to seven churches. In most cases, the letters discuss the faults of the churches. Perhaps Jesus could have saved some time and effort by merely suggesting the churches disband rather than providing timeless constructive criticism for correction and growth. I see provision for the body, but nothing comes to mind supporting lone wolf Christianity (been there, done that, did not work for me).
I held memberships in two other churches after leaving Christian Science before finding the church where I now worship and have fellowship. I explored others. I also considered non-Christian philosophies such as Taoism, New Age, and Judaism. I've found Jesus, the Bible, and an appropriately weak body of believers essential to the building and maintenance of my faith.
Still struggling with the crises, one of which is a national news story today elevating from local and regional news over the last couple of weeks. No way to deny these are storms and conflicts. God meets us in such storms and uses such storms to bring us closer to Him.
Do Go Be Man
<><
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Posted Tuesday, December 23, 2008 7:40 PM
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Welcome, I also am so pleased you found your way to this site. These are, as others have mentioned - very good questions and ones any thinking person should ask. I just wanted to reply to part of the first one..."Why would an infitinite God give his creation (man) only one way to get to him?"
I often wondered that, especially because I knew so many good people who believed differently. Certainly the "many roads lead to the same place" argument comes up often and makes more sense from a human standpoint since we pride ourselves in being accepting and inclusive, especially in today's society..... but in the end God is sovereign:
Romans 11:33 "Oh the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His Judgements and unfathomable His ways!
When God spoke directly to Job in Job 38:4 "Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth! Tell Me, if you have understanding......Vs 12 "Have you ever in your life commanded the morning, And caused the dawn to know it place......
Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this", will it?
I eventually came to realize that some things I just don't understand and its OK to ask questions but if it says clearly in the scriptures as John 14:6 and other verses do.... "Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father, but through me" then I have to keep trying to understand the "why" but I can't go to some other "way" because it will be the clay telling the potter how things should be, I think......
Anyway, I know I am rambling some but again I appreciate the courage it takes to ask some good questions and be open to considering some uncomfortable answers. Keep searching, God is faithful!!
Brian
Brian
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