 Posted Saturday, December 27, 2008 12:29 PM
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Hi Seeker,
I am so glad you reached escape velocity from CS and found this site! I also was raised in CS, but left it in my early twenties, convinced that it was not the truth, both from comparison with the Bible and with how CSists lived very comfortably in the material illusion. By the grace of God, I did not abandon the Bible along with Science & Health, but continued reading, trying to make sense of it. After spending a year wrestling with questions about healing, suffering, and theodicy, the witness of my Christian friends and conviction of the Holy Spirit finally led me through years of blindness to grasp the simple beauty of Jesus Christ's incarnation and atonement by grace through faith. I hope you also will find that Christianity is not a religion but a personal relationship with the Creator/Redeemer of the universe, albeit a relationship that is best developed in the fellowship of others in the Body of Christ.
Why would an infitinite God give his creation (man) only one way to get to him? -- There are many routes up a mountain, but none of them is more 'right' than another. One might be easier, but that doesn't make it better or more right.
This is a common spiritual analogy, which several above have answered well. I think J.P. Moreland and Tim Muehlhoff give a good critique and counter-illustration in their book, The God Conversation, which you may also find helpful. First, here is your analogy restated:
The Mountain Paths Analogy
God resides on top of a steep mountain. At the base of the mountain are individuals who try to get up to him by taking different paths. Some paths are winding, while others are more direct. Eventually, all converge at God. The mistake travelers sometimes make is to become overly attached to a particular path. With each step up the mountain, they start to believe that their path is the best or only way to the top. They fail to realize that all paths are equally valid ways to get to the summit.
The Mountain Paths Analogy has several significant weaknesses:
1. The analogy alters the claims of key religious figures. For example, the central belief of Islam is surrender to Allah, but Jesus claimed He was the only way to God;
Hinduism, however, is syncretistic and does mostly agree.
2. The analogy fails to deal with glaring contradictions between religions. Different religions disagree on the key issues, e.g., Buddhists do not acknowledge any deity or god, Hindus worship thousands of gods/goddesses, Islam has Allah, Judaism has YHWH, and Christianity has a triune God; the nature and behavior of God cannot be reconciled between these belief systems.
Here is an alternative analogy that better captures reality:
The Multi-Religion Maze Analogy
The most famous maze in the world was built in 1702 in the gardens of Hampton Court near London. Consisting of eight-foot high hedges, it covers 1/3 acre with winding paths more than ½ mile long. When entering the maze, you are faced with the choice of which path to take to reach the center of the maze. Some paths quickly lead to a dead-end; others lead deep into the maze before failing. Some paths run parallel for awhile, only to have one hit a wall while the other continues. The challenge is to find the one path that leads you to the final destination – the center.
This analogy works better for multiple reasons:
1. The maze places a value on exploration and self-discovery. The serious seeker of God needs to carefully assess differing views endorsed by competing religions.
2. The maze, with multiple routes in different directions, acknowledges the wildly contradictory views of religions.
3. As in any maze, some routes will head in the same direction or run parallel for awhile, like monotheism in Islam, Judaism, & Christianity, and karma & reincarnation in Buddhism and Hinduism.
Ultimately, I found CS to be a dead end, but have found God's revelation in the Bible to be a reliable map to the center of the maze, while holding to the promise in Hebrews 11:6:
And without faith it is impossible to please God, for whoever would approach him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him. It is fine to ask questions like yours to God; read Habakkuk to see how he questioned God in difficult matters, but especially note verse 2:4. Please continue to ask questions here too!
Peace and truth,
Dave
Ex-CS, now saved by grace!
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Posted Sunday, December 28, 2008 7:44 PM
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| Thanks for an excellent contribution, Dave. There is another point to consider with competing claims, which has the terminology of "Rule of Mutual Exclusion." It simply states that, just as two physical objects cannot simultaneously occupy the same location in space and time, two contradictory or competing facts (or doctrines) cannot both be correct. So, if John believes in Reincarnation and Joe believes in a final separation of the saved from the lost, then there are three possible truths: 1) John is right and Joe is wrong 2) Joe is Right and John is wrong 3) Both John and Joe are wrong. BUT(!!): John and Joe cannot both be right! This is sometimes difficult for people to accept because a premium is placed on tolerance, and it is "intolerant" to inform somebody that he is plainly wrong. But I try to emphasize that I will defend a person's right to believe what he wants, but I will try to show him how/if he is incorrect--and forgive me if I appear to be "intolerant," but I will try to do it lovingly.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 10:39 AM
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| Ok, so now which Christian religion is 'right'? Obviously not CS, but if you accept Jesus into your heart and that is the way, then this brings me back to my original question of why do we need organized religion unless it's for the sense of community and support that comes with it. I happen to agree with most everything everyone has shared on this topic, I'm just feeling kind of burned out on church and don't really know where or even how to look for one that is more comfortable or right for us. I do have a Bible and I do read it. I am simply praying that the right path will open up for me and that I will know it when I see it. I do have children and this is a confusing time for all of us. One of my kids kind feels like they have been abandoned by God because we stopped going to CS church. I just found this out, and it was kind of heart breaking to hear them telling me this. So we have gone back to saying the Lord's Prayer in addition to other children's prayers together but I don't know if this is helping or not. I didn't realize that they'd overheard me questioning if God even existed during a particularly dark period for me a few months ago. I had thought they were asleep upstairs, but it turns out they were not asleep quite yet. Needless to say, I freaked them out thoroughly. So now I have that lovely little bit of guilt on top of all the other guilt I'm trying to deal with. I have worked hard not to let the kids see all of my inner turmoil, but I feel terrible that I missed seeing theirs. On the positive side, we did have a wonderful Christmas and we were able to share a lot about Jesus with each other. I'm grateful for that small step.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 2:22 PM
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Seeker,
Ok, so now which Christian religion is 'right'?
Obviously not CS, but if you accept Jesus into your heart and that is the way, then this brings me back to my original question of why do we need organized religion unless it's for the sense of community and support that comes with it.
Choosing a denomination can be confusing. Depending on how you count them, there are 20,000 to 30,000 from which to choose.
Some questions you might consider regarding selecting a church include:
Do you understand and agree with their statements of faith?
Do they follow God's word, the Holy Bible?
Do they acknowledge themselves as sinners in need of God's Grace? (is the church a hospital for sinners rather than a museum for saints?)
Is their clergy educated, credible, accurate, accountable, and effective in preaching God's Gospel?
Are the members mutually accountable to one another?
Is the church physically close enough that you can be actively involved in the life of the church and its members?
Do they believe they have the exclusive franchise on God's word?
I'm sure that other forum members could provide additional guidance, but these questions align with my own journey out of Christian Science.
Coming out of Christian Science and in spite of taking college classes in comparative religion, it took years and several missteps (for me) to get where I am now. I did not understand the basics of denominations. I did not understand stuff like evangelism and pentecostal, church government and history, Biblical literalism, and clerical education. I didn't even understand basics about the Bible such as the differences between translations and study Bibles (choosing a good Bible would be another good topic).
God is sovereign including over how he has allowed His church to develop into diverse denominations. In the end, however, we are one church, one body. Our Christian family, like many human families, has some black sheep and some dirty laundry. Though many may disagree, that includes the Christian Science church. I obviously agree that the majority of Christian Science teachings dangerously diverge from the Bible, but they do profess faith in Jesus Christ regardless of how they otherwise express it. The faith in Jesus I developed in Christian Science served me well in encouraging me to stay away from non-Christian belief systems.
Resigning my Mother Church membership, I attended the Unity Church for a short time which at first appeared to be like Christian Science with more traditional acceptance of the Bible and church traditions. Frankly, I ended up finding that scarier than Christian Science. The Unitarian Universalist "church" was across the street, but they are among the most liberal of the "name brand" churches. They not only don't depend upon the Bilble, most of the UUs I've known are self-professed atheists.
Presbyterians are well known as solid believers and I had some experience with Presbyterians. I especially liked the fact that many of the American founders were Presbyterian and that the US government was modeled on the Presbyterian form of church government. Thus, when I got serious about finding a church I checked the newspaper for the closest Presbyterian church. I caught a hint of the differences in Presbyterian churches from the newspaper that showed a lot of the "name brand" Presbyterian Church USA churches and one other kind of Presbyterian church. The other one was about 600 yards from my house, but in my ignorance I discounted them as a dissident off-shoot. It wasn't until much later that I learned there are several "flavors" of Presbyterianism in America and the world.
About two years later and many frustrations with practices not supported in the Bible, I left the PCUSA church and joined a United Methodist Church. The straw that broke that camel's back was my Pastor reply to a question regarding a church matter saying, "Scripture is not relevant". My time in the United Methodist church ended when the Pastor proposed some anti-Biblical strong arm tactics for raising funds to build a new Sanctuary.
I was a lone Christian for years after that. I checked out various churches, but their stated rejection of the Bible made no sense to me. I thought there was something high-handed and wrong with me because I wanted Biblical support for beliefs.
During a personal crisis, I broadened my outlook. I found the Pentecostal worship style disturbing. I also found difficulties with churches lacking forms of accountability and direction. Thus, I was uncomfortable with churches such as the Southern Baptists and Churches of Christ. "Non-denominational" churches scare me as they are too easier diverted into cults of personal leadership and belief. I look at the top leadership. If that is a single person such as the founder or a self-perpetuating officer, that is too close for me to a cult and I'd stay well clear of them. Jim Jones and the Peoples' Temple started quite well. Too much of it, however, relied upon Rev. Jones.
The Mormons are wonderful people as a group. Their sense of community and dedication to their faith and each other presents a very Christlike model. Visiting Salt Lake City on a business trip, I went to their visitors' center fully intending to learn how to join them. I spent a couple of hours there wandering around looking at the exhibits. Digging a little deeper, however, I discovered they are not as faithful to God's word as it may appear. I never have been able to find the Biblical basis for the part about each Mormon man who is sufficiently faithful being able to become the messiah of his own planet (that was presented in the Mormon visitors' center exhibits, not something I only got from Walter Martin et al).
Over time, I kept seeing a sign for a church that seemed somehow attractive, but also noticed they were one of those dissident Presbyterian churches like the one in my old neighborhood. I finally broke down and checked out their web site. I discovered they were dissident because they had rejected the larger, more liberal church's move away from Scripture. I read everything I could find about their beliefs including the Westminster Confession of Faith and Catechisms. My family and I went to the church that Sunday and have never considered another since. God has blessed that choice.
Based on my experiences in other churches, I wanted a church that could provide me two things: solid Bible teaching and the ability to sit anonymously on the back pew otherwise uninvolved in church affairs. God gave me the first, but in his sense of humor and irony has made me the chair of the Diaconate and involved in leadership of other church ministries. So far, the only anonymity He has left me is in these forums.
So, which denomination is right? The one God leads you to. He has a way of using what's at hand to shape you and develop you. The first church you turn to is not necessarily where He will leave you. He used the 30 or so years I spent as a Christian Scientist. He also used the years I spent as a member of the Presbyterian USA and United Methodist churches. As a dissident Presbyterian (Presbyterian Church in America), I feel Him still working on me. I don't anticipate changing churches again, but only He knows.
As to why organized religion at all, I'm not strong enough to deal with the world without the body of Christ. I'm too easily distracted by the values of the world. Without the encouragement of my brothers and sisters in Christ, God would find another way. He has, however, blessed me with a church that builds me up, encourages me, and provides accountability in my walk with Him. My Pastors are committed to preaching His word and well educated in it. Our church government provides safeguards against cults of personality that protect leaders and followers. I don't have to make it on my own. God has provided companions in my journey on whom I can depend.
Do Go Be Man
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 7:52 PM
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I think that you will find the support and community of a different denomination incredibly meaningful after coming out of Christian Science. I belong to a church that actively prays for the needs of the local church and it's members, the community, and the body of Christ as a whole....all without being asked! The love and support comes in the form of people 'with skin on' who, in addition to praying, visit hospitals and nursing homes, ferry the elderly or ill to appointments, and bring food to anyone with the slightest need. After the years I spent in CS being neither a recipient of that kind of active love and human kindness, nor a giver, I still find it awe-inspiring.
One thing I do want to add to the great responses you have received so far is that you don't need to put pressure on yourself to understand EVERYTHING before you can attend or join another church. Those of us who grew up in CS have much to unlearn. It has taken me so long to understand some basic concepts such as the Trinity because my thinking was so clouded by what I had been taught. I have gradually understood more and more by attending worship services, sitting in various Bible studies, and reading. Just make a start, and pray for God to give you wisdom and to lead you.
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Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 8:21 PM
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Hey "Anon Steve" here!
I recently remembered that I signed up for this forum awhile ago and just forgot about it. I agree with what Do Go Be Man said at the end of his post: "As to why organized religion at all, I'm not strong enough to deal with the world without the body of Christ."
That's what true religion should be all about (see James 1:27). But honestly I don't look at my life with Jesus as a "religious" life. I just look at it as a personal relationship. Yes there are some religious aspects to it, but the root of it is a personal relationship. What he wrote in there too are some good tips. Don't be afraid to check out some new churches, not only for your sake but for the sake of your family too.
You've been on my heart and mind since I saw your post Seeker. Keep seeking. You'll find the Truth, I have no doubt in my mind.
God bless,
Anon Steve
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Posted Tuesday, December 30, 2008 9:58 AM
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My family took many different paths in leaving Christian Science.
My sisters and brother were not as deeply involved in CS as I became. They went to Sunday School and the A/U camps, but then to public colleges. I was the only one who went to Principia, and then took class instruction. Anyway, my sister joined the Presbyterian church after she got married, and is very involved. My brother married a Catholic and converted. My other sister and I are more or less agnostic.
You just have to find your own path -- don't be afraid to go out and visit churches, see what they have to offer. I firmly believe that organized religion is for the spiritual seeker, and there are so many because people have different needs. I have never believed there is only one true path, even when I was CS.
Ann
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Posted Saturday, April 16, 2011 8:52 PM
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This may sound daft but have a look at answers.com, there are some very interesting arguments put forward and they seem to cover a variety of opinions.
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Posted Monday, May 16, 2011 3:41 AM
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You probably don’t want to print this as it goes against your motives here, but I realized another reason I don’t like this site.
It is funny, but I always get into an argument at the Penn State blog about Joe Paterno. There are some alumni who have supported Penn St all their life as their parents and grandparents went there and they feel like Penn State has to contend for the National Championship every year. I argue that wins and losses come in third to me that second is Joe graduates his players and primary is that he develops boys into men. I don’t understand why the other alumni don’t see this. They say that they do understand, because they have been involved in PSU their whole life, but they want Joe to step down because it is all about wins and loses.
It occurs to me that the Fundamentalists here believe the same way. I think the majority here feel Christian Science is nice, but still everyone has to believe the Bible their way. I guess the difference is that the win/loss people think I am bad alumni where the Fundamentalists want me to burn in Hell for not agreeing with their point of view. Interesting analogy, yes?
BTW, I support Christian Science because I believe in predestination. God knows exactly what is going to happen so you might as well sit back and enjoy it. There are many things in CS I do not like, but if I try and do everything God's way, I expect to hear, "Well done my good and faithful servant!" The only time I stray is when I read this board and the "let me tell YOU where YOU are wrong attitude". I am sorry it gets me off course of how a Christian should respond.
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Posted Monday, May 16, 2011 6:15 AM
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the Fundamentalists want me to burn in Hell for not agreeing with their point of view.
Show me one post on these forums that supports your statement.
BTW, I support Christian Science because I believe in predestination. God knows exactly what is going to happen so you might as well sit back and enjoy it.
Does that mean that the apostle Paul was wasting his time when he traveled around, at great personal cost, preaching the gospel?
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