 Posted Monday, February 16, 2009 12:47 PM
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I am a former CSist and concerned member of a family who used CS to hide their sad and cruel dysfunctions. I have been through a lot of reprogramming over the past years but CS still has strong tenicles of denial in me at times over circumstances that sound so unbelievably shocking that I don't know what to do. I have need of support from those who can understand the deeply rooted and complicated issues of the CS syndrome because I am so frequently stuck with issues from my three CSist brothers' children who also left the CS church, and aren't doing very well in their recovery or in their relation to me or other family members. Without these young people I would be totally without a family and I can't bear the alone-in-the-world feeling.
The cause of my post today is this: I have been stuck with information regarding one of these CS Practitioner brothers that I can no longer sweep to the back of my closet. It feels like my closet is on fire.
The brother in question is a Christian Science practitioner and First Reader in his Church (with access to children, I might add). I know him to be emotionally, mentally and gender messed-up. His experience with women has been so sweet and kind and yet he hurts them/me/us all in the long run by being terribly condescending, insulting, thoughtless, exploitive, opressive, deceptive and chauvanistic. His divorces have been long drawn out battles over custody and full of rigid meanness followed by blame and denial and more blaming the victims. Which leads me to believe some of the horrifying accusations that one of his daughters made against him regarding being molested by him over a period of time (which in my mind coincides with the year that he was between wives and very needy.) The daughter also insists that he has improper stuff hidden in a box.
He accused her of lying of course, and insisted that she was under the influence of malicious Animal Magnetism so now the family has withheld any interest and support for her. The pressure got so great that of course her grades fell in school and eventually she dropped the charges against him. So he is off freely running to Asia now and then "to buy products to sell in the USA to help the craftsmen in little towns in Korea etc." My strong suspicions are that he is going on child-sex vacations due to the way I heard from our dad that he set things up. Disturbing set-up.
I have to ask myself why would my niece make up such horrible accusations against a father who loved her so much???? In C.S. they talk about "Knowing the Truth" but I have to ask what truth? Will we ever know whether my niece is lying or my brother is lying and that my brother is a danger to young children and that I am a bad woman for not hiring a detective to spy on him.
And another disturbing part that hits so much closer to home ... what are the CS adults in my family supporting unwittingly or otherwise?
Thanks for reading this, and hopefully you have some insights as what moves I could make and where I can go for helpful ideas on what to do, say or think. I have prayed about this for several years and only now felt strong enough to deal with it. I post this today because I have studied the stories and replies on this website and I highly respect the quality of thinking and concern of people here. Except for one thing I want to make absolutely clear to all practicing CSists: I do not want a practicing CS to reply to me under any circumstances, so please respect yourself by respecting my request.
Thank you,
A. Mouse
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Posted Saturday, February 21, 2009 12:04 AM
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I left C.S. in 1992. During my time in it, though, I knew what was and was not "living it" and I'd dare to assure you that the problems you're describing are something many C.S.ists would expect to heal, not endure. Such abuse isn't the norm no matter what religion it raises it's head in. I hope you don't mind that stance, but it's from a lot of reading and research, etc. In fact, any person who's up against that kind of crossness, abusiveness, or negativity would be justified in (lovingly) confronting the person.
HOWEVER, if you're going to get abused more for it, DON"T. There is something of a warning against confronting abusive types if they're immersed in a cult.
I made the mistake of assuming my folks weren't that bad. I got threats and reactions you wouldn't believe. I finally had to distance myself from them, cut off completely, and focus on healing up for a few years. I never expected to be able to salvage those relationships, but prayed on it anyway. Eventually my daughter grew old enough to be "safe" and I drew up the guidelines and what I would and would not tolerate from them in terms of behavior. So my kids got to know their grandparents and uncles from a safe distance. Before we got to that, the discussions were done, and I was on an even keel, ready to turn the other cheek some more.
I would have LOVED to have known someone (family or friend) with your courage, to back me up, or validate me. Fortunately my husband stood by me. But these gems of guys can't bear it all alone. So you're right to reach out for more help.
There's a 12-step group based off AA, which you might be able to find on Self-help clearinghouse lists (online?) It's called Survivors of Incest Anonymous (SIA) and there is one for cults too, I believe, but I don't remember the name. They're good.
A friend had me read "toxic parents" but it's really rough. All the support you can find won't be too much. I even found a women's Bible study group with Salvation Army very helpful. You've probably heard about a lot of places.
I can imagine this situation being particularly insidious, just from my own experience. My heart goes out to those kids, grown or not.
I hope you won't take this wrong, but sometimes there's some truth to the concept of false memory syndrome... as when a child puts a safe face and name to the abuser's face and name... rather than being able to remember accurately who did what. So be aware that THAT can happen, quite innocently. I'm not denying what she's said, because it's much more likely it's exactly as she said. Sometimes it's too much for siblings to face & confirm, if that were possible, until years later (if at all). It depends on so much. I got lots of those insults hurled at me - and a fair share of their ire along with it. One aunt stopped speaking to me altogether, after my mom denied everything I told her (Matthew Code). Fortunately before my mom died 11 years later, she made some effort to apologize... so I could tell her I'd already forgiven her. I could go on, but I'd need to know which direction to go. If any of this helps, and is not too redundant, great! I hope you see some glimmers of peace and comfort for you and your dear ones. It's not really healthy to let stress run wild, so if you can take steps to nurture yourself and others, it will usually help... as will finding positive steps to take. Don't become a secondary (or primary) victim, O.K.? You'll be stronger to help your family if you fill up on prayer and whatever Comfort our Lord has ready for you.
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Posted Sunday, February 22, 2009 12:23 PM
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Dear Jennifer, Thank you for the insightful reply. I have gone out of my way to protect myself and the children (they are adults now) from matters which could be made much worse if I came right out and eventually addressed this issue with my brother the suspected pedophile. (I know that whether or not he is a pedophile he is suffering tremendously over this issue and it will take a toll in his health and shorten his lifespan. I grieve over this whole family due to the issues that they deny and fail to correct and heal!
I have kept my silence for the most part even from my niece because even she could reopen the issue with my brother and inadvertently make matters worse and more divided for all of us. My own two daughters have been so sick and tired of family issues in their childhood and teen age years (nasty divisions and divorces) that they have barely spoken to me for the past 30 years. I know they have deep emotional and marital problems of their own, but neither of them are able to set foot in 12 Step groups or other deeper therapies because of the shame that I and they shared when I entered therapy over 35 years ago. Imagine being so ashamed of your mother needing and getting mental and emotional "help"! It's a national disgrace! .... Whether you do or you don't there is a huge price to be paid.
I chose to gain my sanity and hopefully be there as a sane and healthy elder if and when other family members should ever want me. Of course the 12 Step programs are full of bad examples of "recovery" too, but help is out there if one mixes it up a bit; there are no silver bullets in on kind of program. Of course I tend towards Jesus centered therapy because a lot of programs are so New Age and the talk is so much like CS (how you create your own victimization etc.; more blame the victim dogma). I love Jesus so much. I thank God so much for Him (although I am not a Christian he is my true Savior in every sense of the word.)
God, through a lot of strange therapies, saved my life, my sanity and my financial future from total collapse, I was nearly homeless and suicidal for a long time. I am still at risk sometimes.
I never raised my children in CS. but the denial and double thinking, and shame was always still with me to some extent. I know I raised a more enlightened generation of children, and I am standing ready and useful (in support of my own children as well as my nieces and nephews) as a beacon of light that says at least one person in this family had the guts to leave CS and lean on Jesus and the Bible and a bunch of 12 step programs. It is a huge thing that I had the guts to hang around other Christian Churches as well as attend 12 step programs and all the therapies that came down the road; I don't feel right about talking about it.
It is so good to talk somewhat openly about religion and the forbidden sexual issues that almost all of society insists on sweeping under the rug. While I realize that pedophile behavior exists in all institutions where children are vulnerable and where children are taught, even coerced, into trusting the adults in charge who may not deserve that trust, I strongly feel that if you have tendencies to sexually use children then the CS religion is the most perfect religious format to hide your sick and cruel habits behind! .... oh, the wonder working drug of denial.! CS (fanatically used) can have the very same outcome as alcohol or any other drug; you can just wake up the next morning after indulging in your vices and not even remember what horrible things you did!
It is my belief that my family has operated that way for generations. Not only is CS a perfect place for pedophiles to hide sexual disease that are most accurately called child rape, CS is also a perfect place to hide a drinking-drugging problem from oneself and the attitude of either one is quite similar.... the attitude of denial and sweeping the problem under the rug which they refuse to see is on fire and burning up the people.
In my family of CSists every one of them married an alcoholic who frustrated their CSist partner to near death. The perfect demonic combination if you ask me! I would know, too, not just from observing and wrestling with this "reality" between my grandmother the CSist abstinent one, and my grandfather the Catholic binge drinker and my mother the lonely only child who got caught in between..... denying all her life that her dad's alcoholic behavior even existed let alone had any ill effect on her, or that her disdain for Catholics and Protestants alike might be very damaging attitudes to carry around all your life. I know that my mother's mental and emotional development was arrested at all of the various important stages of her childhood development, and I know that she married my father who was at the time rebelling against the So. Baptist Church led her to believe that all of the answers were with MBE and CS text books. So my dad could hide his drinking problem (and the shame he felt from using) it from himself as well as from Mom and the rest of us, after all it wasn't as blatant as her dad's, and as long as it was done in secret it wasn't hurting anybody. HUH? Well, that's the way they operated. In therapy one of the slogans is "you are as sick as your secrets." And CS is the poster religion for secrets. And my brother has been damaged by the family secrets and the belief that the denial that CS teaches is the only way to live. I have little doubt that my brother and a lot of other CS men have a lot of serious sexual abuse issues much like the rest of the world, but as long as the CS religion teaches denial the problem will take down one man and one more young victim at a time. And it just bugs the beepers out of me that nobody in my CS family or the CS Church or even former CSists want to talk about it. So thanks for talking to me....
I want to thank you for every thought and word you shared with me as well as others that I have read on this forum. Thanks also to moderators that make this all possible. And to God for inspiring it all.
A. Mouse
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Posted Sunday, February 22, 2009 2:30 PM
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Thanks. Glad to listen.
I don't know if your road will look anything like mine. (Strange opening thought, yes.) One wise person recommended to those of us who speak through art, to make a simple picture, a road as it were. And along that road mark the losses and pains with little crosses. YOu could mark the happy times with flowers or anything that makes you smile. It isn't a comparison, or anything. It's a way of letting it be known, or expressing it, without having to say anything to anyone. I forget what her reasoning was, but I did it. I was doubtful, to be sure. And I was surprised when I felt better. It was different than writing about it. I can't explain it.
So I don't know if our roads will look anything alike, despite the similarities. I didn't marry anyone with alcohol problems - though I did marry a fellow who used to be the bartender. Big difference. But that's another story.
Anyhow, I'll agree, the 12-step stuff isn't perfect. It's a possibility for some. I don't mind saying, I found no trouble with the people I met there. The people in the SIA group and ACOA were particularly good for me to be with. No I wouldn't dream of breaking their confidence, or asking you to either. That wouldn't be right, since trust and confidentiality play a huge part in their healing process.
If I learned one thing, it was that no particular religion was to blame for the addictive behaviors or demented choices people made. Until that makes sense, all religions would be off limits to the recovering person. While you can do it alone, conceivably, no one stays as warm, strong, or inspired ALONE as they can be with the others. You know, the branch severed from the vine... Isolation is something I guard against. It was a key part of the problem in CS. Praying about it ALONE is not as amazing as PRAYER accompanied by action (with or for others). There's so much healing help to be found within the Church, that I would encourage not writing it off yet.
Did I mention Salvation Army? They're sort of a band-aid, to help us when we feel alienated from church, though not necessarily alienated from God. They aren't just there for the poor in dollars... they are also there for anyone who has had rough times on any level. Again, not perfect, but there's a lot of compassion, camaraderie, and healing going on there. (Some Corps are more on target than others.) If anyone knows what's wrong with alcoholism, and other abuses, they do - they are constantly working to help people back onto their feet, and back into good lives. That's a strong-hearted group.
I guess what I'm saying is that it isn't just CSers who deny what's happening when it comes to these kinds of problems. It's throughout all humanity; and precious but few are the groups willing to see, and help. Don't take it as argumentativeness on my part either. IT's different talking in a big city where nobody knows you. I know what it means to be so badly broken that I couldn't lift my eyes off the pavement. I KNOW there is hope. I also know I was too wounded for most people to be able to know what to do... let alone be of any help. When it's like that, lots of folks make themselves scarce. Family included. It means they can't handle it. No blame, it just IS. Some could a little, but mostly they know what they can carry and what they can't. At least I figure it that way. This stuff isn't for the timid or spiritually weak.
Thank you for protecting your kids. I don't know if they've had the sense to say it - most don't.
Nothing is worse than being in denial and letting them get hurt. What they do with it after this is another matter. You've said they're grown. Even at this stage of the game, with most adults, there is a great deal they can't shoulder. If I were to infect another person with pessimism or dejected attitudes, I'd be really bugged. I've actually had to be careful how much I tell people, since THEY CAN BE TRAUMATIZED just by hearing about it. So you're probably wise not to go into to much of it with the grown kids.
In your walk, if there's been the guts to get help, you have earned congratulations; and leaving CS took guts.
I think the key is finding a group where the Holy Spirit loves to be, while avoiding the cults, of course. As you heal up more, you may find you feel at home somewhere with your brothers & sisters in Christ. We were taught carefully to mistrust the clergy and anything with dogma or teachings of the original Christian ilk. So, I felt strongly that's one of the stages, then, of recovery from CS: being able to accept, trust (appropriately), and believe the original Christianity, which MBE fought so hard against.
It took about 10 years of steady teaching by good Christian groups, before I could take a level-headed look at CS, and see where the twisting and lies were blended in with the false doctrines. During those years, I dealt with my own wounds, and did my best to heal up in every way God led me. First I asked for my smile back. Then I asked for healing of my hands - If it was all the same to God! I'd serve him either way, but I preferred to have my hands to do it with. So I paint some, and bake a lot, knit, write, and other stuff. I paid alot of attention to comforting the grieving heart within me. (It sounds like you have a lot of grief too.) I read and researched, all I could stand. I didn't just figure that the self-help alone could do it. I didn't ignore what those things could teach me either, though I tested them up against Jesus' standard at every turn. If it passed, it got to be part of my arsenal.
A Salvation Army minister told us to write down the 4 people who helped us find healing - helped bring us to Jesus for help. Those were our stretcher bearers... like the story in the Gospels where they took the guy on the liter and let him down through the roof in front of Jesus... THEN he asked us each to volunteer and pick someone to be a stretcher-bearer for... and write their name on the other side. Keep the paper to remind us to pray for that person (they don't have to know).
Things like that helped me a lot. I like the churches because the people there are always coming up with things I hadn't thought of. Same for the writers like Joyce Meyer, Scott Hahn, & Max Lucado. I cry when I read some of that stuff, but I feel more complete afterward. There's a women's interdenominational group around here, who do workshops and Bible studies together -with good food and fun. I'm not their church generally, but have found lots of help there. Technically I've chosen Roman Catholic for my home. It's like having the whole amazing enchilada. It's my privilege to visit the other denominations, too. Brothers & sisters in the same thing. I insist on 2 things: it must be a place where the Holy Spirit is; and there must be genuine community among the people. I'm not strong enough to swim upstream on those, yet - not while I'm busy on these other fronts. I heard the author of Dead Men Walking speak at a women's retreat with Salvation Army. With what she survived, she came up with the same clue to the healing as God gave me: forgiving is the next step. Without it, they've still got you as a victim.
Whether it's CS or some monkey trying to hurt children; it's still the next step: Forgive, and trust that God is fair and just and will take care of everything. If they are willing, Jesus wants to heal even the sinners. It is his thirst. If he succeeds, we may well see them in heaven: and he doesn't want us to be the offended elder brother of the prodigal! To be more like him, then, I have to be hungry and thirsty for the repentance of EVEN the sinners I know about. It isn't some vague concept, for unknown hordes! It's about loving my fellow man THAT much. Some call it "love till it hurts". I can't tell you how happy it makes a person. It lifts us out of the dark dismal place we were in, to a place filled with hope and love.
Maybe you can count me as a friend along this road?
Jen
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