 Posted Saturday, January 02, 2010 8:51 PM
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As I hope all can envision, I tend to be somewhat "radical" in my Christian practices and beliefs away from these forums as well. I've just signed the Manhattan Declaration. It's a call to follow Christian conscience regardless of the cost. I know there are those who are or would be offended by this declaration. For that, I make no apologies. I pray, however, that you can respect our right to believe and exercise our freedom of expression of religion. If "radical" Christian expressions of conscience offend you, this would be a good spot to move on to another topic.
Do Go Be Man
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The following represents an introduction to the declaration created from a press release and other web material for those who may be interested:
On November 20, 2009, a group of prominent Christian clergy, ministry leaders and scholars released the Manhattan Declaration, which addresses the sanctity of life, traditional marriage and religious liberty. The 4,700-word declaration issues a clarion call to Christians to adhere to their convictions and informs civil authorities that the signers will not-under any circumstance-abandon their Christian consciences.
Christians, when they have lived up to the highest ideals of their faith, have defended the weak and vulnerable and worked tirelessly to protect and strengthen vital institutions of civil society, beginning with the family.
We are Orthodox, Catholic, and evangelical Christians who have united at this hour to reaffirm fundamental truths about justice and the common good, and to call upon our fellow citizens, believers and non-believers alike, to join us in defending them. These truths are:
- the sanctity of human life
- the dignity of marriage as the conjugal union of husband and wife
- the rights of conscience and religious liberty.
Inasmuch as these truths are foundational to human dignity and the well-being of society, they are inviolable and non-negotiable. Because they are increasingly under assault from powerful forces in our culture, we are compelled today to speak out forcefully in their defense, and to commit ourselves to honoring them fully no matter what pressures are brought upon us and our institutions to abandon or compromise them. We make this commitment not as partisans of any political group but as followers of Jesus Christ, the crucified and risen Lord, who is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
For more information, please visit www.manhattandeclaration.org. If you chose to sign the declaration, I would be interested to hear about that either as a response to this topic or by private message.
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 9:54 AM
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I respect your beliefs and your right to voice them.
However, I strongly disagree with the attempt to legislate your beliefs into the laws of this country, thereby denying other citizens their rights and violating the separation of church and state instituted by our founding fathers. It reminds me of the Christian Science church and the laws they got put on the books to make health insurance pay for CS treatment and Medicare for nursing homes -- again, legislating in favor of a particular religion.
That's all I have to say on the subject.
Ann
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 12:08 PM
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Well Ann,
Christian Scientists pay insurance, Medicare like any other citizen. Any other groups that you would like to deny rights to?
There's going to be a chat tomorrow on spirituality.com by Phil Davis, the Manager of Committee on Publication discussing this. Perhaps you or others would like to listen and pick up a few facts.
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 6:19 PM
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Ah, yes, the standard "we pay medicare, taxes, etc. so our practitioners costs hould be reimbursed like physicians costs". Not a valid argument. Physicians' work is not comparable to practitioners work, apples to oranges comparison. Others have posted eloquently on this web site why this is not a valid comparison.
As I have repeatedly stated on these forums, look at the numbers. Under 30,000 now tells you your own people don't buy into it. They're leaving....and leaving and leaving....
Helping One Out
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:26 PM
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violating the separation of church and state instituted by our founding fathers The First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." This amendment was intended to prohibit the government from establishing an official state religion. It was not written to keep all religion out of government, and it was not written to prevent government from making laws based on values. Examples? Government has made laws regarding rape, theft, murder, etc. All of these things we consider "bad" involve "imposing values" on others. I think the founding fathers would be surprised that the protection of unborn babies, the definition of marriage, and the protection religious liberty are considered by some to be "legislating [one's] beliefs into the laws of the country" and denying the separation of church and state.
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:27 PM
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So Helping One Out what other groups would you like to deny rights to?
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:45 PM
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So Helping One Out what other groups would you like to deny rights to? Helping One Out didn't say, or imply, anything about denying rights. The point was that practitioners and doctors are really in a different league in regard to the insurance issue.
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Posted Thursday, January 07, 2010 6:58 AM
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All this is is making an argument to deprive people of what they are morally entitled to, and the folks are merely doing so out of prejudice.
Tell me something which do you see as contributing further to the downward spiral of our economy, the cost of medical care or the cost of practitioner fees?
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Posted Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:47 PM
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Linda (1/6/2010)
violating the separation of church and state instituted by our founding fathers
The First Amendment says, " ; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
This amendment was intended to prohibit the government from establishing an official state religion. It was not written to keep all religion out of government, and it was not written to prevent government from making laws based on values. Examples? Government has made laws regarding rape, theft, murder, etc. All of these things we consider "bad" involve "imposing values"on others.
I think the founding fathers would besurprised that theprotectionof unborn babies, the definition of marriage, and the protectionreligious liberty are considered by someto be "legislating [one's] beliefs into the laws of the country" and denying the separation of church and state.
Fine. I was going to say this in the other section, where the person comments that this site is not very welcoming. I'd have to agree, this site is for fundamentalist Christians who are as dogmatic and dictatorial and cultish in their way as any Christian Scientist. Clearly I, with my Hindu leanings and my gay family members, am not welcome with MY values of tolerance. I don't give two hoots whether someone who would like to get married is gay or straight or washed in the blood of the lamb.
I am leaving this site.
Ann
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Posted Thursday, January 07, 2010 2:02 PM
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Linda (1/6/2010)
violating the separation of church and state instituted by our founding fathers
The First Amendment says, " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
This amendment was intended to prohibit the government from establishing an official state religion. It was not written to keep all religion out of government, and it was not written to prevent government from making laws based on values. Examples? Government has made laws regarding rape, theft, murder, etc. All of these things we consider "bad" involve "imposing values"on others.
I think the founding fathers would besurprised that theprotectionof unborn babies, the definition of marriage, and the protectionreligious liberty are considered by someto be "legislating [one's] beliefs into the laws of the country" and denying the separation of church and state.
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." - Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)
Every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience." - George Washington (Letter to the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789)
"Question with boldness even the existence of a god." - Thomas Jefferson (letter to Peter Carr, 10 August 1787)
"When a Religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its Professors are obliged to call for help of the Civil Power, it is a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin (from a letter to Richard Price, October 9, 1780
I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)
"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)
"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams
"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)
"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)
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