 Posted Tuesday, January 05, 2010 6:35 PM
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wow..I really messed up the quote device on that last one Hope you can figure it out........ sorry
born free
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 10:16 AM
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I too have struggled with whether to pray to Jesus or God, thanks for bringing this up.
As for me, even through my CS years (most of my life!) I would pray the "scientific way", then after a few minutes, particularly if it was a big problem I had, I would then just start talking to God instead. I now of course pray like this all the time. I have been particularly helped recently by watching the "God channels" on TV. Yes I know some of them are a bit iffy, but I really like Joyce Meyer and Dr Charles Stanley. The latter recently gave a sermon on intimacy with God, I think maybe you can get it on DVD. It really moved me, I dont think I realised how near and loving God really is. As for hearing God's reply to all this talking, I do think that he puts thoughts inside me, guiding me, reminding me about things I promised I would do etc. I think the more time I spend praying like this to him, the more I seem to be developing a relationship with him, its taking some time though.
As regards the blood sacrifice of Jesus. I also find this difficult. The two thoughts that help me are that perhaps Jesus himself wanted to give his life for us, as he said that "greater love hath no man than this that he lays down his life for his friends" (Sorry if that quote wasnt exactly right!) As I believe that the reason why we are in this world is to learn how to love in many different ways, this sacrifice would provide the highest level of love possible to show us. Also, maybe once we realised how sinful we have been, our guilt about this would make us ashamed to approach God at the end of our lives here on earth, and so Jesus removed this barrier for us so that we could return to God.
Starfish
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 10:55 AM
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Hi starfish
thank you
That blood sacrifice you spoke of.Re-read he post from linda where she qoutes hebrews 10.
As I said, that helped me a great deal to see that it was our guilty conscience that needed cleansing by Jesus' death. Yes he laid down his life in love and it was to set us free from our sense of guilt. It doesn't say we were filthy sinners or dirty or even corrupt. The deffinition of sin is 'miss the mark'... an old archery term.
our sins are missteps in the eyes of a loving father and as Jesus prayed on the cross for god to "forgive us for we know not what we do"..god's view of our condition is made clear. He knows we don't know what we are doing and forgives all. He didn't need the sacrifice to forgive us...WE needed the sacrifice to cleans our guilty conscience. It was the serpent who told us we were naked ..not god.
am I getting too far off?
born free
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 11:06 AM
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one more quick thought..
I hear people say Jesus died for us..took our place on the cross. Again , if I come at this from the perspective that God is not a punisher because love is His nature and love doen't punish, I see that in order for the old covenant, which is all about sin and punishment, to be done away with, the covenant or contract has to be cancelled so to speak.
Jesus was the son of man and also the son of god. when he died in our place ans also in place of god , both parties in the cantrct died. So the law was fulfilled and finished in one act. He took our place not to receive punishment but to free us from the law. Now we, having no more guilty conscience are to go boldly before god with the assurance that he sees us as pure innocent clean children.
I didn't make this up .It's in the new testament but I can't find the verse.
born free
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 5:43 PM
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God did not give us a spirit of fear. Fear not, fear not, fear not. You all sound so rigid and fearful. Is that what your interpretation of the Bible does to you? When Jesus was asked what one had to do to inherit eternal life he named the last 6 of the "Ten Commandments (or words).
Also he said the greatest commandment was to love the Lord with all your heart, strength, mind (not verbatim) which is a summary of the first four commandments and the second greatest was to love your neighbor as yourself which is a summary of the last 6 commandments.
The Pharisees kept the "Commandments" yet got condemned for doing it to the letter of the law and not to its spirit.
Practicing love of God and love for your neighbor is equivalent to or better than keeping the Big 10 C
Isn't the Decalogue the law of the Jews? If you're Christian, aren't you supposed to follow what Christ taught? He said you had to go further than the old laws, and He only gave one law, which pretty much covers the big 10 and then some.
I've always wondered why Christians would ignore what Christ said and revert back to the rules of another faith.
In the Bible, I only see Jesus lay down one law:
"This is my commandment, that you love one another
as I have loved you." (John 15:12 RSV)
The Decalogue is the law of the Jews, and if it were adequate, why on earth would God send Christ down to change the original proscription?
The FIRST of the Ten "Commandments" (contrary to both the Protestant and the Catholic Versions)...
Hold on. First of all, they are not "commandments".
The text says, "Gd spake all these words, sayings...." (Exodus 20:1)
So they are called the Ten Words.
Of which the first is,
"I am the LRD thy Gd
who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of bondage."
That tells who has to keep them.
The ones who came out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Everybody else is expected to keep the Seven Laws of Noah, given to Noah after the floor, in Gd's covenant with Noah in which Gd promised not to flood the earth again.
Just being me
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 8:36 PM
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Anonymous (1/6/2010)
In the Bible, I only see Jesus lay down one law:
"This is my commandment, that you love one another
as I have loved you." (John 15:12 RSV)
You are right when you speak of Jesus only laying down one law (a single summary commandment), but the verse you quoted is not it. Jesus makes many an impossible demand in His Sermon on the Mount's opening dialogue, but He sums them all up at the end of Mathew 5 when He says: "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." Matt. 5:48 ESV He knows of course perfection is impossible for men, "but all things are possible for God" (Matt.19:26- another place where impossible standards for salvation are given) means that God alone, in the Person of Jesus Christ, fulfilled the law to perfection- as Christ said earlier in this Sermon (verse 17).
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 8:50 PM
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TO:Just being me
I don't undersand why you sound upset!? What's up ? I'm just trying to understand why we are to see Jesus as 'the way". He said 'no man cometh to the Father but by me"
I'm trying, after coming out odf cs ,to figure this all out.
Your other posts sound so welcoming and accepting of all. Did I sound too... what?
Boen free
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 9:19 PM
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As I said, that helped me a great deal to see that it was our guilty conscience that needed cleansing by Jesus' death. Yes he laid down his life in love and it was to set us free from our sense of guilt. It doesn't say we were filthy sinners or dirty or even corrupt. Born Free, Hebrews 10:22 doesn't talk about a "sense of guilt" which implies false guilt -- it talks about cleansing from a "guilty conscience." A guilty conscience implies real guilt, which implies that sin -- a violation of God's standards for behavior -- is involved. Why would Jesus come to earth, live in less than comfortable circumstances, go through a series of illegal trials, endure ridicule, flogging, and then abandonment by his followers, and die the most torturous type of death imaginable just to help us feel better about ourselves? All the prophesies, miracles, and agony seem like overkill (pardon the pun) if he's just trying to help us with our self image. The purpose was much larger than that. Furthermore, Jesus himself talked about a torturous afterlife for many and spent a lot of time talking about sin (not just a "sense of sin"). I encourage you to read Romans 1:18 - Romans 3 for an eyeopener about the sinfulness of mankind, God's anger over it, and his loving solution in the Person and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. I didn't really appreciate my salvation until I began understand the depth of my sinful nature while doing some "self discovery" in the context of counseling. The grace of God is sweetest when we truly understand our need for it.
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Posted Wednesday, January 06, 2010 9:21 PM
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| In reference to the person who originated this thread, I would say there's nothing more central to "being saved" than a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, & unfortunately, this is also where the CS train has jumped the "track" that is the Scriptural manner of salvation. Jesus differed from all the OT prophets that preceded Him (& John the Baptist as well) by focusing on the importance of faith. But we should ponder the rhetorical- "Faith in what?". The Canaanite woman in Matt. 15 was commended for her great faith as she continued to humbly press Christ for her miracle even after He called her a dog in comparison with God's chosen people. She did not turn away because she had the same cognizance that Peter had when he responded to Christ's question of whether he wanted to leave like some others- "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God." (John 6:68-69). If it was nothing more than a "Principle" or an "Idea" than made up the notion of Christ, then any one of them could have taken that mere "Principle" from Jesus & gone happily on their way. So where Mrs. Eddy jumped the track is where she swapped the capital "P"'s; she swapped the glory of the Person of Christ for the supposed glory of the Principle of Christ & did exactly what the faithful disciples would not do- reject Jesus personally. The rhetorical is really a trick question, because it is not "Faith in a what" that Jesus is trying to inspire, but "Faith in a Who".
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Posted Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:36 AM
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Just being me
I couldn't agree more that Jesus brought Love to the table in a way not done before. Yes He said that to love god and your neighbor fulfulls all the law. I'm good with that. We tend to get all caught up in everythihg but the love part or the spirit of the scriptures and focus on the letter of the scriptures.
in this forum I am focused on the words because Eddy twisted them into someting other than what God intended . So I, and others here, are trying to re- see what is in the scripture.
I referred to the law because Jesus was sent to the Jews. He was a Jew. All he spoke about was in reference to the tradition of the jews. And the new testament says that (at least one of) the reasons or result of his death on the cross was to do away with the law .
Someone will have to help me find the new testament verse referring to the covenant as a contract that was nullified when one person died meaning Jesus and the old covenant. I can't quote it.
Believe me, I'm not at all into fear nor am I rigid in any way. I'm beyond trying to say I know it all. After coming down from the high horse of cs I'm open to whatever is true. Again I and many here are just trying to understand where Eddy was wrong concerning Jesus and what the real import of his life and death and resurrection is.
Born free
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