 Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2003 12:55 AM
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Hi Peter,
Any idea of why you don't allow free discussions on spirituality.com?
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Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2003 7:19 AM
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Dear Stephen:
I wish the main purpose of this site is to rouse discussion.
Some are under the pretense that they want to SAVE Scientists. Peter Frye has stated that Christ is his Lord and Saviour. This should stop any Christian from trying to save him. Their argument is that Peter distinguishes between Jesus and Christ, much like they distinguish between God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit, but in their eyes Peter is wrong and they are right. Scientists believe in predestination (like Calvin), so they don't try to save you, they try to help you in your journey. If you believe that Heaven is a perfect Spiritual place, then keep your eyes on Jesus and go there now. There is no need to wait. God is Alpha Omega, there is no timeline. Even though I study the Word every day, I am not there, but I keep pressing towards the mark. If only I have the faith the size of a mustard seed, but I am not discouraged because the eye has not seen nor the ear has heard the wonderous things that await us.
re: your comments on healing - Knowing that you are in God's care, you are healed and perfectly healed from any inperfection through Chrsit, because there is no power that can snatch you from God's hand, nothing can harm you. Jesus proved that we will even overcome death. You can do all things through Christ who strengthens YOU.
God Bless,
A Scientist
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Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2003 10:39 AM
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A Scientist,
Thank you for making the distinction that (s)ome are under the pretense that they want to SAVE Scientists. We can't save anybody, only Jesus can do that. I can tell you that my main purpose in participating on this site is to engage in discussion. I benefit greatly from working through the topics and the ability to discuss them from the perspective of a former CSist who is now an Orthodox Christian.
It is my training and experience as a former CSist that enables me to understand the gaps that exist between CS and Biblical Christianity. Peter Frye, other CSists, and even you constantly reinforce those gaps. When it comes down to it, however, I don't know who is saved, who isn't, and who will be. Perhaps we can all get together for a Christian Way reunion in Heaven and laugh about these days of petty disagreements. I'll leave my name at the information booth if any of you want to get together then (including Nyoka and Peter Frye). 
My personal goals on this site have little to do with trying to change anybody else's mind. I'm quite busy working on my own. As some have been quite willing to point out, I don't have those kinds of credentials. I read, I learn, and I test what I think I understand. I'm happiest when I learn something new along the way or gain a new perspective on old habits and thinking. The example of the Bereans in Acts 17:11 is one among things that has really stuck with me. They examined the Scriptures daily to see if things were as they were told. If someone disagrees with me on a Scriptural basis, I'm ready, willing, and able to listen. If the basis of disagreement comes from somewhere else, I simply mark it up to blessings such as those mentioned in Matthew 5:10-12.
When I write, I usually have a specific audience in mind. Though I addressed this message to you, I know others will be reading it. Many will read it and forget it. It may trigger something useful for others. I can be sure that others will find fault, but all will read it from their individual perspectives. The audience I often have in mind is the one that Peter Frye represents for me - a gung ho, class-taught, knows all the answers, President of his CS Org, active in branch church and TMC affairs, Christian basher CSist like I used to be. I can't claim to address that group well. It's pretty selfish of me, but it does help me deal with the guilt and pain I feel for having been there. Acts 7:58 is a passage that strikes a nerve for me. Paul, then named Saul, held the coats of the men who stoned Stephen to death.
Bottom line for me is that I have seen God working more directly in my life and in the lives of people around me since accepting Orthodox Christian beliefs as found in the Bible then I did in CS as found in S&H. Maybe I had the wrong teacher. Maybe the members of my branch churches didn't understand CS. Maybe my collaborators in TMC activities and all the other CSists I knew lacked something (that includes several CS Teachers, at least one current Board member, and several other high profile CSists). In any case, where I am now in my walk works. Where I was in CS didn't. So long as CS continues to reject Orthodox Christianity, Christians will reject CS. In the meantime, we can talk about it.
Class dismissed . . .
Do Go Be Man
<><
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Posted Tuesday, July 22, 2003 6:37 PM
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re: your comments on healing - Knowing that you are in God's care, you are healed and perfectly healed from any inperfection through Chrsit, because there is no power that can snatch you from God's hand, nothing can harm you. Jesus proved that we will even overcome death. You can do all things through Christ who strengthens YOU.
A Scientist -- well, I'm curious, since I am feeling the sting of a CS relative's comments who says that if one of my family members had really really understood CS, he wouldn't have died. Now, this family member was about as devout as you could ever wish to be -- class taught by a teacher who was taught by one of MBE's own students, and grew up and worked for the Mother Church. He held various church positions, and lived it right up until the final stroke when, in so much pain, he asked to go to a hospital. He died a couple of days later -- we were told we might have been able to have saved him if we'd brought him in soon enough.
Now, do you still state the above -- that "Knowing that you are in God's care, you are healed and perfectly healed from any inperfection through Christ, because there is no power that can snatch you from God's hand, nothing can harm you" ? Or will I get the usual "the person must not have understood CS well enough?" How well is "well enough?" What's that line that you have to cross? It shouldn't be how many church offices you hold, or who your teacher's teacher was. Seems to me that there are a lot of true and dedicated CS people, just judging from the stories on this site alone, who were genuinely living it, and ended up dying it. If there's some final proof that they have to show -- well, what is it?
If this is truly a science, then you must always get the same results when you put in the same ingredients, unless something is altered or impure. Is there some hidden litmus test for purity that some people can pass, and the rest cannot? Does a lifetime of refusing medicine and doctors, and relying wholeheartedly on God for healing count for so little, that if you seek a painkiller at the end to help you think more clearly, it's grounds for rejection and death?
Tell me, a Scientist, because I'd really like to know.
Tia
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Posted Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:14 AM
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Dear Tia:
First let me say how sorry I am for the death of your relative. He sounds like he lived a great life and in my humble eyes he did absolutely nothing wrong by going to a hospital to relieve the pain. I probably would have gone much earlier, because I don't have that kind of strength.
Please let me also say that I have been through so much death that I became a Stephen's Minister and have helped people go through their grief. I am perhaps the worst Stephen's Minister ever, but it is comforting to know that someone has experienced a similiar type loss. A good Stephen's Minister listens, but my personality is usually to tell it like I see it.
Having prefaced that, let me say that I see two village idiots here. Whoever at the hospital said that if he came in earlier he might have lived should be fired. In almost every case, people feel guilty when a loved one dies. Most of the guilt is unjustified, but people always second guess themselves. Any hospital knows this and for an employee to say this is cruel.
The other village idiot is your Christian Science relative. People do not know how to respond to death. They say the most idiotic things and this comment quite possibly heads the list. My reaction is to hate that relative, but I beg you to be a better person and forgive them. I feel that it was a defensive reaction, because probably feel inadequate because they could not pray harder or some other such nonsense.
My point that I hope will give you comfort is that there seems to be a contradiction. We all die yet, all who believe in Him shall Live. Phil 1: 21 - For me to live is Christ and to die is gain. 23 - For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better.
My conclusion from reading the Bible is that your relative lived a life for Christ and he is now perfectly healed and in an absolutely wonderful place. I know that you are sad that he is not around, but be glad for he is in a far better place.
Every day this week, please read I Corintians 2:9.
God Bless and I hope I cleared this up.
A Scientist
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Posted Wednesday, July 23, 2003 2:37 PM
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Dear Scientist,
Just read that you are a Stephens minister. When I was going through a bit (rather more than less) trouble someone suggested to me that I should contact a Stephens minister - but we found there is no one in my area.
Would really be interested in knowing more details about this and, who knows, maybe that would be an opportunity for me to reach out and help people in my area. If you are willing to share information or let me know where I can get that, please let me know. If you wish you can do so on my private e-mail.
Regards
Spring/Marion
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Posted Wednesday, July 23, 2003 2:57 PM
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A Scientist,
First let me thank you for your loving reply to Tia. Most CSst that I have known over the years are loving people, but most do not know how to express that love and concern except by "knowing the truth". You showed a genuine love for your fellow human being and I can agree with almost your complete response.
I do have a question for you, though. You said that CSst believe in predestination. I never got that out of CS. What are you basing that on? I may be showing my ignorance, but I don't know what Calvinist believe.
My Bible tells me that God knows every hair on my head (my husband jokes that God must not know him as well as He did when my husband was younger) and that He knew even before I was born whether my name would be in the Book of Life. Is this what you are talking about?
OK, that's more than one question, but I would appreciate your clarifying this for me.
Blessings,
Susan
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Posted Wednesday, July 23, 2003 3:05 PM
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Dear Tia,
I very much understand your questions - I kept asking them for months, rather years, before I finally quit the CS church. And as that has been pretty recently am still in the process of "finishing" that stuff.
For years, I've also been looking to more knowledge, more spirituality, more studying and striving to understand the bible, S&H (that usually was my FIRST resort), the other writings of MBE. And, in several instances, the problem, physical or workrelated or other, was solved and I was grateful. But there were also those problems that just didn't yield. No practitioner seemed to be able to help me, no studying, praying. There was one problem that was so bad, I cannot describe it, and for years, I applied CS and, in an attempt to heal it through CS started to study the bible in more detail.
The problem is still there, unfortunately.
In addition, the bible study gave me another "problem". Because a lot of it was not in line with what I had heard from CS. As I had been so convinced of it, having converted to CS as an adult, after much consideration, I didn't like what I read in the bible - but eventually stuck to it and left CS, first mentally, and then officially when I felt I couldn't stay in the church with the understanding I had.
And through the bible study I also got rid of "seeing the perfect man", have arrived at saying "it's ok as it is even if it's tough and let's see how we can best live with it" though without abandoning my prayers to God. I have also stopped putting myself into this corner of not having studied enough, not yet knowing enough, of ........
As I said I am now in the process of finishing my experience, of looking at how I got to CS and why I left etc. And what I found is that there is a system with rules and regulations which makes people strive to follow it with their very best intention and efforts and at the same time blinds them to the negatives. As the healing prayers in CS include highlighting the good and perfect and calling anything bad, sick etc. error, it is ever so easy to overlook it, just keep silent on it, not voice criticism. In short, to create a picture visible to all that is just not the real picture. You can read about the CS healings everywhere - but nowhere about its failures, I mean nowhere in socalled official literature. So you only hear "whow, it healed that lady from cancer" but you never hear if that was the only person suffering from cancer who looked for healing in CS or if there were a million out of whom there was only one healing (I am sure those figures are exaggeration but I use them to make it clear what I want to say). And if you always only hear one side, it's just shifting the picture.
Right now, it reminds me of countries like the former east Germany, communist country, where you were never allowed to openly mention that the state was unable to provide eg enough toilet paper for every one. Or enough meat or others. But, officially, all the news were great. Just emphasizing the good stuff actually or wished to achieve.
Kind of like watching ads on TV.
In this kind of environment, I kind of don't blame a CS who makes a comment like the one you heard from the CS relative - heard similar stuff from members of my (previous) local branch church about another church member who died - but at the same time could just get angry at. Don't blame because these people are usually very sincere and believe what they say. And get angry because they just don't get what they are doing, in this instance to you, and also the injustice to the poor person who had died, possibly after long suffering and after devoting his/her life to CS and completely shattered him/herself that it didn't work for them.
As to a power that can harm you - officially the CSists say evil is unreal, error. But then MBE had someone pray for her protection from malicious animal magnetism every night. If that was unreal - as it must be if she felt she needed protection from it - how come she says there is no evil ...
God bless you!
Spring/Marion
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Posted Wednesday, July 23, 2003 3:19 PM
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