 Posted Wednesday, April 07, 2004 7:28 PM
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Hi all,
I'm new to this discussion board but have visited the Christian Way website several times since July, 2003. I feel compelled to ask several questions, as the title of this post suggests. I'd like to first briefly discuss my background for asking these questions.
I am a Christian, and was raised in the United Methodist Church. I fell away from most church activities and did not have much of a Christian walk during part of high school, for my college years, and for several years thereafter. During that time, though, I did retain my belief in the God of the Bible. For about the past 6 years I have recommitted myself more and more to God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, a Christian walk, and being a member of a local church (United Methodist and now a more evangelical Christian church as I have temporarily relocated from home due to my job).
I dated a woman last summer (2003) who is 3rd generation CS, teaches CS sunday school at her local church, has attended conferences at (and may be a member of) the Mother Church in Boston, and is "class taught" (if that's the right expression for someone who has had formal instruction in CS). She regularly attends her church and daily reads from her CS lesson. At the time we began dating I knew little of CS, other than it has 'Christian' in its title, there is a main church called the Mother Church located in Boston, and that believers in CS were said to be healed of physical ailments by their faith in God rather than reliance on medicine.
As I learned more of CS teachings from my ex-girlfriend, I knew and sensed their incompatibility with what I'd been taught and learned of the Bible. My feelings were confirmed by conversations with other Christians: members of my family, a pastor at a previous church, and even with a former girlfriend. I believe that several of these people I spoke with were motivated by the Holy Spirit to reach out to me. Also, this website was a terrific resource in learning more about CS.
I ended the dating relationship with my ex early last fall due to the differences in our religious beliefs. I have had little contact with her since then due to my temporary relocation for my job. I have seen her several times in group settings back home (including a wedding) because we have several mutual friends; we had cordial relations at those events. I do want to make it clear that I am over the dating relationship and have no romantic desire for her.
Now on to why I've posted here.
I've read through several of the previous posts. I've observed that there are a variety of folks posting, most from a CS background. Many of you are Christians at various stages in your walk, others are at a point of spiritual and religious questioning and exploration. I very much appreciate the sense of community, and oftentimes Christian fellowship, I see in many of your posts.
As many of you former CS are now practicing Christians, I'd appreciate any insight you're willing to offer. My questions are generally along the lines of:
What, if anything, should I do to approach my ex-girlfriend about her belief in CS and its incompatibility with the Bible?
Should I reveal that I have been praying for her and the other CS members of her family?
Do you think there are particular resources or testimonies that would be useful if I do approach her?
What are some helpful, simple (and hopefully not too threatening) ways of asking her to question her belief in CS? (I did read in a previous post about the 20/20 rule - are there others?)
I welcome all responses from any poster on this website. Please feel free to ask me questions if you'd like me to elaborate on my background, reasons for posting or questions I've asked (although it may take me awhile to respond as I'm often away from a PC). My thanks to you who read this post, and to those who respond (in prayer or by post). God bless you all.
James 1:22
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Posted Thursday, April 08, 2004 6:01 AM
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Hello, Anonymous,
I read your post last night but decided to take some quiet time and some prayer before responding. This is just a personal perspective, mind you, as an ex-CS who is relatively new to this board (about a month, tops). I was a third-generation CS, I was a member of The Mother Church, a local branch church and also class taught. That is pretty deep in the system, and pretty strong in the beliefs.
Let me tell you the kind of Christian support that helped and that hindered my own journey away from CS. This is not the same as a conversion to fundamentalist Christianity, and in many cases I believe that like your own journey from childhood to where you now stand with Christ, people who leave the Chrisitian Science movement take this as two steps: out of CS, and after a time of trial and prayer, on to a form of Chrisitianity that you would recognize. Others may witness to their own experience, of course, but this has been mine.
When I was in college and about to marry, the subject of blood tests led to a Bible-believing young man treating me to a 15 minute lecture on why I was damned to hell for not being his kind of Christian. When I was in Italy on business, and chose not to take wine with the meal, the subject came up again as to why... and I was treated to another lecture for why I was damned to hell for not being Catholic. When I provided transport for a young man from the airport to his new apartment, I got exposed to why I was damned to hell for not being a Mormon. This kind of approach is not helpful. It makes one defensive about one's own beliefs, besides being from a social perspective rude in a country where we prize the freedom of religion.
What helped me most was the simple example of Christian compassion given me at various times in my life by people who were not CS. If you read my post about losing my Sunday school classmate when I was in high school... the compassion of my non-CS classmates made me aware that love and compassion do not end at the doors of the CS church. When my grandmother died, a work chum (who happens to be Lutheran but always showed respect for my beliefs as a CS) showed up, simply showed up at the funeral, to let me know she was there for me. When I was working in another city, a Jewish lady with whom I worked showed me a whole new side of practicing her religion. She behaved in such a Chistian manner than the roots of Jesus' teachings were made plain.
Because of the way these people acted towards me, showing me their faith "by their works", not preaching at me, I was open to the messages that came via radio, or television, or print media as I needed them. Most important, when you talk with someone about their religion, do so in a non-judgmental way. Ask questions, on your own behalf, not challenging to a debate, but genuinely seeking to understand. That does two things: it offers the CS to whom you are speaking the opportunity to examine their beliefs from another perspective, one they may not have been exposed to, especially as a third-generation CS. It also gives you the option then to give your own personal testimony, "I believe xyz because this happened to me..." Don't be defensive about your beliefs; do show your love for Jesus. If your friend is open minded and you maintain a relationship of respect for one another and your individual rights to believe as you choose, it is more likely to allow what you say to support her at a time when she needs it. Be patient... it's God's timing, not man's... you will have done your God-directed part, let Him do the rest.
- Jean W.
by the way, I went looking for the 20/20 post you referred to... I'd like to read it, but on a simple scan of the 11 pages by topic, I didn't immediately see it... can you point me to its title & what page it's on?
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Posted Thursday, April 08, 2004 10:37 AM
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James 1:22,
I agree with JeanW, telling a CSist that they are going to Hell will have even less impact on them than on other non-believers. CSists essentially believe Hell is of our own making, that it doesn't exist, and that God as Love would never condemn His creations to such damnation anyway.
James 1:19-27 seems to be a call to action. I encourage you, however, to look at the full context (the intent of the 20/20 rule) to also consider what it says about hearing. Pray for the Holy Spirit so you may hear your true call to action. Granted, I believe that the Holy Spirit likely led you to visit this site and post your questions. Being men, we are predisposed to action and I, for one, am not at all immune from acting then praying as many of my postings may attest.
Like JeanW some of the worst Christian witnesses to me were the most aggressive. Their usually well-meaning efforts on my behalf just turned me away and deeper into CS. I was led out of CS by studying the Bible beyond the Lesson-Sermons. I began to wonder why the committee left out certain passages as the cherry-picked Scripture. I found that doing so changed the meaning drastically.
CS teaches that the Bible is flawed and thus in need of interpretation and revision. My focus in witnessing to CSists is to get them to read the Bible in context. I try to not start off disputing CS directly, but rather encourage them to look at what CS represents the Bible to say. You may have noticed some recent posts that I wrote that dealt directly with how the CS Lesson-Sermon skips over crucial concepts.
I've written on this forum about one of the best Christian witnesses I encountered in terms of impact on me as a CSist. It took many years after our meeting on a plane, but what he offered finally got through to me. He did not approach CS from a position of ignorance. He, in fact, seemed to be as familiar with S&H and the history of the movement as me. I don't know who he was other than I recall him introducing himself as a Baptist minister and that he resembled someone I knew, but do have a suspicion I won't be able to confirm until I get to Heaven myself.
Have you read what Walter Martin and the subsequent editors have to say about CS in The Kingdom of the Cults? The link I created will take you to a page that includes information on CS as well as Dos and Don'ts of witnessing.
Do Go Be Man
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Posted Thursday, April 08, 2004 11:39 AM
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Do-Go,
The Kingdom of the Cults drove me further into CS. I was researching book stores as COP in our area when I came accross this book in the early 80's. The book put me in defense mode and kept me there for many years. I just followed the link in your post and found myself feeling the same way all over again after reading just a few lines. Maybe it is just me, but I don't think this book is a very good witness to someone who is still in CS. To put this all in context I had been through several lectures on going to hell because of my CS beliefs shortly after we moved to the Bible belt. I am still resentful after all these years.
C
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Posted Thursday, April 08, 2004 11:58 AM
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C,
Thanks for pointing out the pitfalls of Kingdom of the Cults. I agree that we should not necessarily encourage CSists or even those who recently left CS to read it. My suggestion was to James 1:22 for him to get some background information from a Christian perspective.
Do Go Be Man
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Posted Thursday, April 08, 2004 8:15 PM
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People may respond to Martin's book based upon their intellectual temperament, their experiences in CS, or their distance to/from CS. I had been separated from the practice of CS for well over ten years, and was a Christian babe, when I first encountered it. For me, it was liberating--I'll even say an effective de-programming!
So it will have value to certain people. C, that period as COP may have been personally painful to you, leaving emotional scar tissue which Martin's book re-sensitized. The emotional debris of CS has been discussed in other threads, recently on "Rules Not To Live By" (ref. to "A Rule For Motives and Acts.")
I'll vouch for DoGoBeMan's point about not bludgeoning people with intellectual argument. Because there is a highly cerebral (not intellectual) aspect to CS, using academic and rhetorical approaches may be counterproductive and offensive. As I've posted elsewhere, those who exit CS seem to fall into two broad categories (with exceptions and overlap).
1) People who have had, or become cognizant of, CS's rather dismal "healing" recorcd. Sure, they hype the testimonies, but CS is based upon 19th Century psychology, and is more smoke-and-mirrors than actual result. Sooner or later, people truly realize this, and lose their trust in it.
2) Increased study in, and appreciation of, Scripture. For the person who still respects CS's belief system and trusts the healing methodology, this may be the best, least offensive, and most effective approach. As a friend of mine has said, "When Mrs. Eddy sought answers, she turned to the Bible." This can be argued, but it sure disarms a CS'ist! How can they argue otherwise? Bible-study practices to be encouraged with CS'ists are:
a. Reading passages before and following the Lesson-Sermon's selections. And anything excerpted out! Request the CS'ist to ask himself, "Why did the Lesson-Sermon Committee* chose to start here? End here? Omit the exceprted verses? Why?
b. Read Scripture in larger, sequenced sections. Books studies are excellent. I always recommend Luke for starters.
c. Use a modern translation, such as NIV or TEV. Even the RSV. A good study Bible with Evangelical notation, if possible, like Scoffield.
d. Find a good Bible commentary, and make a gift of it. Hey, Greek To Me, any suggestions??
There are certainly others, but these four are starters. Anything that gets a CS'ist more into the Bible is useful. Invite your friend to a community Bible study!
*Few things in CS are more secret than the Lesson-Sermon committee. Members are not allowed to divulge their participation in it until their service is concluded. Each member works on a subject individually, and then presents her selections to the others for review and comment. They work a couple of years in advance, which precludes the Lesson-Sermon from being timely with its subject matter.
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Posted Friday, April 09, 2004 4:25 AM
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That was an interesting post, fH. Especially about "overlap" with reading more of the Bible in larger context. I suppose both would be true of my experience... I was encouraged during class instruction to do just that with the Bible lesson... read before and after the selections. And I did, for years. Also, to use concondances, dictionaries, and other tools, including other translations and commentaries (although there were only a couple that they encouraged the use of) in seeking understanding. Which I also did.
You know the story about the boulder... many blows and you about give up on it, when one final hammer blow shatters it? That's used inside CS as an example of working on a healing, "breaking the mesmerism", but it can also be applied to coming out of CS. There are many elements showing the way, battering against the wall, if you will. fH mentioned two: observation of healings that don't happen, and reading the Bible in context. A third is exposure to the Christian example of others: to good Christian fellowship. The phrase "Jesus with skin on" from one TV sermon comes to mind.
Ever notice, those of you who've left the movement, how you used to be encouraged to only have contact with other CS? Principian and Adventure Unlimited, International Youth Meetings, etc. were part of the attempt to "keep" young people, who tended to leave (and still do) for lack of human contact.
The contrast between how my fellow CS'ists behaved towards one another and how other churches behaved made me aware there was something else out there. There really wasn't much in the way of socializing locally among the church members where I grew up... Adventure Unlimited existed, Principia existed, but that was for "rich" CS kids... which I was not. There was a certain class distinction based on material (read financial) success. While I grew up and became moderately successful in my professional life, that class distinction remained with me. The friends I chose to hang out with in my free time were not CS. I was the oddball, and I was OK with that because they were tolerant, as was I. I believe that the young people who most painlessly leave CS are the ones who have friends outside of CS, and have seen a good example of Chrisitan fellowship outside of CS. I knew years before TMC sent Sunday School representatives to encourage the branches to be more social that other churches did this better... far better.
I believe it is much harder for someone who is a true "insider" to leave, whose only friends are inside, who has been taught to avoid "contamination" of other ways of thinking.
- JeanW
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Posted Tuesday, April 27, 2004 11:21 PM
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Jean you hit how I felt about the actions of my fiances . . .
steve
Moderator's note: The contents of this message have been moved to the "Broken Hearts (For Steve)" thread.
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Posted Saturday, May 01, 2004 4:13 AM
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