 Posted Monday, March 21, 2005 6:44 PM
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Hello
I am new to this thread..... a person in need desperately seeking help to deal with my CS spouse.
I am married to a pretty dedicated CSist. I have been married to her for 12 wonderful years, we have 2 beautiful girls and by all standards we have a pretty great life and marriage. However, she is a CSist, which is a cause for great strain on me as I am very convinced that not only is CS a lot of garbage ( please no offense to those of you who grew up with it) but it is anti- Christian. I just cannot see the attaction to following the teachings of a 19th Century Puritan from New England who made unbelievable outrageous claims and none of it has ever been subtantiated.I have been the consumate tolerant husband. And as an Irish Catholic, we are not known for our tolerance!
I have attended CS services and even allow my kids to attend CS Sunday School when they attend CS Services with their mom, which just burns me up inside. I simply do not see the attraction.
I am a practicing Roman Catholic and a firm believer in the Risen Christ and his message of love, peace and justice. While I have a lot of issues with the instiution I was born into, and all of its imperial problems a 2,000 year old institution is bound to have, I stlill believe deeply in the message and the mission of our Church, ie...salvation, mercy for the poor, healing the sick, ( in a hospital!), and forgiving sins. My kids are baptized in the Church and will have both recieved Communion and be Confirmed as my wife is equally tolerant of my religion. She was actually born Catholic but her mother left the church after her parents divorced and they both became CS followers. So my kids are exposed to both CS and The RC Church.
I was thrilled to find this site as I have been struggling to deal with my wife's obsessision with CS. I have had some very difficult discussions with my wife about our religious differences. I told her that I would embrace any protestant faith whose central theme is the life and teachings of our Lord the Messiah Jesus Christ. I have much more in common with Evangelicals like many of you or any of the other protestant groups as long as it is Christ centered and not centered on a non-divine indvidual. I have been pretty clear that CS is not Scientific or Christian but unfortunately, for those who cannot admit it a cult of personality around MBE.
My big concern is that the silence in our lives about our differences related to religion and faith is deafening. I love my wife and cherish our life together but it kills me that we cannot at least have our faith in Jesus as Lord in common. I am at a loss as to how to open her eyes as to the wrong path she is going down with CS. I am looking to you kind people for guidance in how to deal with this and would greatly appreciate your help. I have been praying dilligently about it and remembering in in my morning Rosary dedciations seeking the answers.
I took me a while to get the courage to post this so, I apologize for the stream of conciousness.
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Posted Monday, March 21, 2005 7:38 PM
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Surfer for Jesus,
Welcome to our forum. I pray that you will gain as much benefit from it as I have.
I can certainly pray for you. As far as providing specific guidance, however, I'd like to know something about your situation. Have you discussed this with a priest? Can we assume you were married in the church. Did you go through premarital counseling? How did your wife react to that?
I suppose you know that Catholics and CSists have a particular aversion to each other's churches. That resulted from MBE prohibiting the teaching of CS to Catholics which allegedly was the result of a request by the Pope in her time. That whole Catholic vs. CS thing can get quite out of hand.
We've had a number of discussions regarding mixed marriages and marital prospects. I assume from your message that divorce is not desired or an option. The thread that first comes to mind involved someone considering marriage to a CSist - Floating. It's been sometime since anyone posted to the thread, but as I recall, it included some pretty solid discussions that may interest you.
Do Go Be Man
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Posted Monday, March 21, 2005 11:06 PM
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Do be good man
Thank you, you must be a professor I have seen your postings and read them with great interest. You are amazingly insightful.
I have not spoken to a priest about this. I do plan on doing that soon...yes we were married in the Church and we both attended of all places the Catholic University of America. I have spoken to a priest in the past a family member who married us, he is my cousin. He was always concerned about the long term viability of this situation.
When I got married, she had fallen away from CS, but as time went on, she got back into it. Now I would say she follows it from a spirtual standpoint but not necessarily as it relates to medicine. For example, there is no issue with the kids and medicine... at least from what I can see. My kids have always been given medicine. So that makes it easier at least from a child rearing standpoint.
I am more worried about our relationship and the challenges that this presents. I always felt uncomfortable with CS people when I told them i was Catholic. They looked at me like I was crazy or something...so that is an interesting statement you make about the aversion between CS and the RC Church... given the history of both that it pretty obvious and what you are saying really hits home
The thread you had me look at was really great.
Does anyone know of any CS people who converted to Catholiscm? Or anyone can help provide any more literature that I can read with my wife to help?
Thanks so much
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Posted Tuesday, March 22, 2005 3:19 AM
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I was raised in CS and will be confirmed this Easter in the Catholic Church. If you have specific questions, I'll try to answer them.
Regards,
JMM
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Posted Tuesday, March 22, 2005 4:27 AM
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Hi surferforjesus,
Welcome! I have 12 years too with a CS wife. Fun isn't it! I have learnt a lot from this forum, both about the depth of the deception and lingering pain of CS and also of the peculiar nature of our situation.
My kids (8 & 10) have no regular contact with CS at all. They attend with my wife maybe 1 or 2 times a year if I am away on work trips, but she has now agreed to stay home on those Sundays because I made it clear that I don't want them involved at all in CS. I can't say that this 'firm' position has been the healthiest for us, but I just can't seem to bear letting the kids be exposed to those lies, subtle as they usually are. My daughter has been asking about getting baptised and I don't want her blossoming faith messed with by CS ideas. My son is as a younger level, but hangs of everyone of mum's words (like every young boy should!). So he picks up a lot from overhearing phone conversations with her CS family etc. I can still remember him one time mentioning God being our 'father-mother' and the sense of fear I felt at the thought of him being led into CS.
An argumentative approach to trying to resolve my issues with CS has done lasting damage to our relationship and I wouldn't recommend it at all. Healing this has been very up and down. The same may go for books etc. If they attack CS then they are probably a dead end and counterproductive to boot. General Christian books may be better, but there's so much filtering that they may not do much good. There is no 'magic bullet'. I have seem glimmers of hope over time, but they're brief. CS reinforcement is so strong. The main lessons have been that whatever exposure to scripture (-S&H) that you can offer her is positive (I've been told to 'let the word of God do it's work' eg. like Isa 55:11) and also to be as gentle about faith issues as possible. We take the kids to Christian concerts and buy Christian CDs for her for birthdays etc. If you know what Christian music she likes then you can let those artists 'preach' to her. I honestly don't know how my wife loves some of the Christian songs she sings given the very non-CS lyrics. I just keep looking for it to impact on her beliefs.
There are many wise people on this site. Barb had some excellent advice in the 'Getting past hatred, getting on with life' thread back in February 05. She was led out of CS by a patient and loving husband. 2 things I'm trying to be! I share your pain at not being able to have a healthy spiritual side to your marriage. It feels like there's a huge chunk missing for me, but CS tells her that she's already complete.
If you're happy enough to be at any church that follows the gospel then telling CS people that you're Catholic may not be necessary. I don't think I phrased that right, but I mean that if the Catholic/CS antagonism that seems to exist is a problem, but you don't consider yourself to be exclusively Catholic then that's one problem you can solve by not focussing on your association with the Catholic church, but rather your association with 'our Lord the Messiah Jesus Christ' - as you put it. Not that this is any less confronting in doctrine to CS, but at least it's not at the surface level of initial conversations.
I'm interested to know how old your girls are and what they think of CS?
IHS,
Dug
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Posted Tuesday, March 22, 2005 9:09 AM
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Hi SurferforJesus,
I was that CS wife you are talking about. My husband was Catholic. You are right, arguing doesn't work too well. My husband and I had a whole bunch of heated arguments about theology and the nature of reality, etc. In the end, he converted to CS! He admittedly had many doubts about Catholicism (based, he says, on his schooling by Franciscans!!), and he wasn't attending church, etc.
That said, my wonderful guy was never much of a committed CST, either. I was, though. When I think back on our journey out of CS the thing that comes to mind about my husband is that he took what he felt was good from CS and just ignored the rest. He never talked about it much (said I would've flipped if he'd told me that he believed Jesus was God, etc), but he did listen to me....he listened and he listened and he listened while I blathered. Somehow he made me feel safe, that I could discuss with him my questions and doubts.
He had a good understanding of the basics of Christianity and I would often go to him when I couldn't understand some concept. In the end, I felt like he understood God much better than I did and he never cracked a Bible Lesson or S&H!! Now I see that most of his understanding came from his religious upbringing (Catholic schools from start to finish).
When the serious questioning of my CS faith began to happen he gently supported that questioning. I always just remember that he never judged or condemned me.
One thing that kind of jump-started the whole process for me (and of one other CST I know), is reading the book by Gillian Gill that the church put out several years ago. It contains so much information that pokes a hole in the Eddy myth. I remember reading it and feeling such deep turmoil. I had to put all the questions out of my mind for a while, but again, it was a milestone in the journey out of CS.
All the best,
LizzieBee
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Posted Tuesday, March 22, 2005 11:59 AM
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JMM
My question is what is it about the RC Church that attracted you to the point you leave CS to go to The RC Faith?
I know this is probably a long answer but maybe you could summarize the driving factors....having grown up an RC... we all have love hate relationship, like a family member....with the Church... and the embarassing truths of sexual abuse and abuse of power are extremely painful and impossible to defend. But we understand the fallibility of the institution and for all of its faults does much more good for humanity, particluarly the "least of our brothers"
I am curious and your insight would be helpful.
I wish I could meet all of you!
DUG
My kids are the exact same age as yours.... the people at the CS Church are of course some of the nicest ( and by the way richest) people they have ever met, so they enjoy it. But they also love to go to Mass, in our very large and old and musical parish in Southern Cal.... they love the Spanish Mass and the liveliness and of course the ritual..... which is one of the gems of being Catholic... so they get exposed to the beauty of the Eucharistic Service and the focus on the life of Jesus
It is unbelievable to meet someone who is going through the exact same thing as me. I pray about it, but mostly I just avoid it until it blows up and we have a heated argument about our differences..... I am somewhat of an overbearing person...... so I overpower her and make her feel bad and of course being riddled with guilt afterward, I apologize and ask for forgiveness.
We are very compatible...even last night i was reading her information on the differences between teh Bible and S & H, right from this site and it seemed she was getting it , but I know that CS is her refuge, she will always go back to that.
I often just think, I should just back off .... if it makes her happy how can it be a bad thing... then I read something or have a thought and it drives me nuts that to the point where I bring it up again. It is difficult.... but I feel like I will somehow get through it. You and I have a lot in common and we should get together and discuss this sometime are you open for that?
Lizze Bee
What a great story... you sound like a great woman and your husband a great man.... patience is not one of my virtues but I am trying hard to be patient.... I will think of your husband as an example in my struggle to get through this.
I think the only thing I can do is love her for the person she is and try and be patient and hope that it does not destroy our family.
Keep me in your prayers.... Lizzie Bee
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Posted Tuesday, March 22, 2005 1:44 PM
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Hi SurferforJesus,
"My kids are the exact same age as yours...."
I got that feeling. Wierd hey?
"I pray about it, but mostly I just avoid it until it blows up and we have a heated argument about our differences..... I am somewhat of an overbearing person...... so I overpower her and make her feel bad and of course being riddled with guilt afterward, I apologize and ask for forgiveness."
Ouch - that's me too. Although now I don't push the spiritual differences. There's no point. I think the arguing/conflict just drives her closer to CS which says - there is no conflict.
"We are very compatible...even last night i was reading her information on the differences between teh Bible and S & H, right from this site and it seemed she was getting it , but I know that CS is her refuge, she will always go back to that."
You hit the nail on the head. CS is her refuge. It does sound positive that you can discuss things at this level. Just avoid going for the jugular. Let the Spirit and the Word have their time to work. You have room to move and that's a wonderful thing.
"I often just think, I should just back off .... if it makes her happy how can it be a bad thing..."
I think you know the answer to that.
"You and I have a lot in common and we should get together and discuss this sometime are you open for that?"
Absolutely. Anything that can help either of us is a good thing. I'll email Linda with my email address.
IHS
Dug
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Posted Thursday, March 24, 2005 8:15 AM
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My question is what is it about the RC Church that attracted you to the point you leave CS to go to The RC Faith?
I had always had some interest in it, even as a young teen-ager. This was in part simply because my CS parents were so dead-set against it. I had Catholic friends, and the dichotomy between their religious practices and the often impossible-to-meet CS demands and constant turning away from reality was fairly obvious from the start. I think a lot of it was the very physical practice of the Mass -- lots of singing, standing, kneeling, etc. You never got that in the CS services -- and frankly, I felt a lot more closer to God when I was in a Catholic service. That may not sound like it's much of a reason, but I always looked forward to the Communion services in the CS Church because it was the one time I felt I could express my desire to be humble before God -- you just don't get that in the CS Church. I'm not much on a lot of emotional expression of religion (no offense to anyone here -- it's simply not my style) but I liked the Mass because of the expressions of humility I saw there.
Maybe it's also because I am somewhat of a visual person, and the stained glass windows and physical representations of Jesus, etc., helped me to focus my attention. I also felt that the Catholic Church's community outreach was so much greater than anything I ever saw in CS. I liked the variety of the priest's comments from Sunday to Sunday, instead of just reading the lesson that we'd been reading all week. The Catholic Church was so much more alive than anything CS had to offer!
Finally, I just made the decision last fall to really learn more about the Catholic Church to see if it was what I wanted to commit myself to. Even with all the problems with the priests, I felt that those that I had known were honest and upright, and that hadn't always been true of some of the ministers I've dealt with. I have spent the last five months in RCIA, and nothing I have learned about the Catholic Church has turned me away from it, although I admit there are still some issues that I may not agree with the church on completely. Perhaps it is best to say that I like the upfront attitude of the Catholic Church on what it stands for, and if I disagreed, at least I knew where I stood with it. I've attended Catholic Mass off and on all through the past 20 years, and finally decided that it was the one church I had gone to that I was never unhappy with.
I like the sense of community that I have gained from the church I attend, and the support I have received during the death of one of my family members. I didn't leave CS for Catholicism -- the journey between the two took more than 10 years. I left CS for very specific reasons -- the death of one of my parents due to their radical reliance on this BS, and its utter and complete failure to heal me of numerous physical problems. I hated the idea that it was somehow my fault I was born with certain deformities because I simply couldn't purify my thought enough, etc. Leaving CS was probably the healthiest thing I did, aside from starting to go to doctors!
I cannot say that I was drawn out of CS by the Catholic Church. I was drawn away from it by my utter frustration with its demand that I turn away from reality -- and the fact that I was tired of being blamed for my physical problems because I wasn't somehow practicing it right. I spent two particularly rough years working with a practitioner to try to resolve a really miserable job situation. And when the job ended with me being fired, I took a hard look at CS. I don't regret trying to love my enemies and praying for them, but I regret that I let the situation go on so long, believing that it could all be healed, instead of facing the fact that I wasn't right for the job, and that certain people were not going to be friends no matter what I did. I spent a long time shaking off that experience, and that was when my break with CS really began. It ended a few years later completely, but that was the start of my journey into other religions -- I actually had no religion for several years, and felt utter relief because of that. I only started attending church on a regular basis again about four years ago. I got so fed up with one Protestant service that I started attending Mass because I felt that I at least knew what the church stood for.
I am not sure if that really answers your questions, but I'd be happy to try and explain my reasons further. I have never really articulated any of this before, so it may not be as clear as it could be.
Regards,
JMM
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Posted Thursday, March 24, 2005 8:40 AM
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Hi JMM,
Thanks for sharing that, it's been very interesting. It's good to hear that you feel so much at home at the RC church. Though it is not my choice, it is one of the christian churches with a very solid moral foundation (of course, their staff are humans, sinners - and what we read in headlines is not THE RC church)!
"I spent two particularly rough years working with a practitioner to try to resolve a really miserable job situation."
I know what you mean. Whether it was a job situation or whatever other type of "problem", prayer to "heal" a situation was the first thought, and persistence the second. Guess, besides the fact, that this world is basically "Satan's" and that we cannot heal everything through prayer, such "failures" are also due to the fact that CS must somehow tell its followers that there is a specific "right solution" to something for which we can then pray - in the all-too-familiar CS denial and affirmation stuff. I find now, that for many things I used to pray for healing in CS, with my present understanding I would present it to Jesus and simply ask what he wants me to do. And that might just well mean to accept rough times, to resign from a job, to let friends or part of the family go. Call it the narrow-mindedness of a CSist that makes him/her want to have a particular healing, I am convinced this is supported by the CS system. It advertises: You have a problem, heal it with CS! It is not: You have a problem, humble yourself, bring it to God, ask him which way HE wants you to go. Praise God in whatever situation you are in ...
To get back to RC church: what do you think about the bread and wine being turned into the flesh and blood of Jesus, and what do you think about praying to Holy Mary and to the Saints, and do you think that the RC church is the only true Christian church into which all other Christian churches should eventually be integrated, the unfailing Pope? I do not wish to "attack" you with these questions, I'd just love to learn your understanding of it.
Withing you and your family a blessed Easter!
Marion
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