 Posted Friday, December 26, 2008 9:24 PM
|
|
|
|
Wow -- I just accidentally deleted two posts. I had two windows open and was able to copy and paste the posts before losing them completely, so I'll paste them below. My apologies to Anonymous and zoarean for the goof!
Linda
-------------------------------------------------------
Zoarean's post, 4:29 PM
And the Bible actually says to worship in spirit & truth (John 4:23-24). This was one, among many, of my difficulties with the CS service growing up. There was no worship, no adoration, no bended knee before God in the service, nor apparently at any other in the Christian Scientist's life. All through Scripture I kept seeing men humbling themselves before Almighty God, but I saw the CSist give thanks to no one but Mrs. Eddy & the completely impersonal "Divine Mind". In retrospect, I can understand why, because CS is centered around the very unbiblical concept of worshipping an "Idea". CS displaces the Scriptural worship of the Person of God for an Almighty "Idea" instead (see B!X's comment at the bottom of this link for an example). They exchange passionate worship of the great "I Am" for the soulless worship of a salvific "Principle" that they have conjured within their own lesser mind. In this, the CSist actually worships his own intellect.
But then again, if a major portion of the explicit teachings found in the Bible are a lie- the parts summed by Romans 3:23, & explored in depth by the Sermon on the Mount- we can see the inconsequence of a personal Savior. For, assuming sin is indeed not real, one can understand why the CSist in fact would not be drawn to worship the Person of Christ.
zoarean
--------------------------------------------------------
Anonymous, Post 15391, 5:18 PM
If you read further into Romans you will understand that when you are in Him and He is in you that there is no sin.
If you go to a Doctor and the Doctor gives you a shot and you feel better, you praise the Doctor.
If you go to your Pastor whatever denomination and the Pastor gives you Scripture and you read it and feel better, does the Pastor want you to praise him or the Idea? You praise the Idea and give all Glory to Him.
You may also want to read what Paul says when the early Christians starting following the personal religious leaders rather than the Idea of Christ.
You may also want to go back to your Church. Wednesday night used to be people thanking Mrs. Eddy all the time where it became almost a tradition growing up, but I have yet to hear it at my Church in Dallas except for an occassional old timer.
Linda, you have researched the life of Mrs. Eddy much more than I and maybe she got upset if there was not physcal improvement, but I can only speculate that she was frustrated that the theological leaders at the time were poo pooing her ideas. You and I both know that they were poo pooing her ideas, because she was a woman. If a man wrote it, they would have been much more receptive. Mrs. Eddy therefore may have been looking for something to make Christian Science vastly different.
I see Christian Science as very simple. When something goes wrong in this world, you pray and get closer to God. You love God with all your heart, strength, mind and soul and you love your neighbor as thyself. Do this and ye shall live too. People may get a better idea of being humble by getting on their knees, but dedicating yourself to the idea that there is only God and nothing else is as humble as one can get.
Please do not say that CS does not follow the Bible, because it does more than any other denomination I have gone to. If you want to comfort former CSers, then do so, but don't blame the teaching. There were many followers of Jesus who walked with Him, who became disenchanted. If others at the time wanted to comfort them that would be fine, but how would you feel about those who tried to comfort by saying that His teachings were false.
I have read many of the cult books and many raise questions that I can't answer, but I have yet to read anything that shows that S&H is not Biblical.
|
|
|
Posted Friday, December 26, 2008 9:54 PM
|
|
|
|
Anonymous (12/26/2008)
If you read further into Romans you will understand that when you are in Him and He is in you that there is no sin.Well, let's work our way through Romans from the aforementioned 3rd chapter to the verse I think you're referring to. Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one." 3:19-24 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. (20) For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. (21) But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it- (22) the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: (23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, (24) and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 4:7-8 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered; (8) blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin." 5:8-9 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. (9) Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned-- 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? (2) By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 6:20-23 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. (21) But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. (22) But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. (23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. 7:7 What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 7:17-21 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. (18) For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. (19) For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. (20) Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. (21) So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 7:24-25 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? (25) Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin. 8:1-3 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (2) For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. (3) For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh. The danger of the Universalist mindset is that they read the blessed promises of God as if they applied to all. This letter was addressed not to all the residents of Rome, but to "you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ, to all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints." Despite the wishes of Universalists, Scripture speaks of an elect group of people called to "belong to Jesus Christ" and it's tough to belong to an the amorphous "Christ Idea". I assume 8:1 was the verse you were speaking to, but note that there is qualifier involved- "for those who are in Christ Jesus". Sorry for all the Scripture, but the statement "Please do not say that CS does not follow the Bible, because it does more than any other denomination I have gone to." must be addressed. For something that CS claims does not exist- sin, Paul (as well as every other Biblical scribe) sure does spend a lot of time seeming to demand that it does. Again, I apologize, but that assertion calls for one more quote: 1 John 1:8-10 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (10) If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us zoarean
|
|
|
Posted Saturday, December 27, 2008 11:23 AM
|
|
|
|
Merry Christmas, Marcos (Anonymous, Post 15391, 12/26/08 5:18 PM),
I see you're trying to slip in some of the same old / same old misconceptions of Christian Science. For reasons we've discussed many times, I was inclined to ignore your latest. With chores awaiting that I'm trying to deny, I started writing. Denial is a practice at which I became quite proficient through Christian Science. Yes, I know it's a waste of time I will regret, but keeps me from working too hard during my Christmas break.
If you read further into Romans you will understand that when you are in Him and He is in you that there is no sin.
Where in Romans do you suggest Paul says there is no sin?
If you go to a Doctor and the Doctor gives you a shot and you feel better, you praise the Doctor.
Just yesterday I was talking to someone and praising God that He brought healing to me and others. Sometimes He heals supernaturally, sometimes naturally, and sometimes He brings doctors into our lives. In all cases, I praise God. Not sure what you do based on assumptions you impose upon others.
If you go to your Pastor whatever denomination and the Pastor gives you Scripture and you read it and feel better, does the Pastor want you to praise him or the Idea? You praise the Idea and give all Glory to Him.
A good Pastor will want all praise and glory reserved for God. There are also pastors who consider themselves the representation of the Second Coming.
You may also want to read what Paul says when the early Christians starting following the personal religious leaders rather than the Idea of Christ.
What does Paul say and where does he say it? Could Paul's cautions apply to latter day religious leaders?
You may also want to go back to your Church. Wednesday night used to be people thanking Mrs. Eddy all the time where it became almost a tradition growing up, but I have yet to hear it at my Church in Dallas except for an occassional old timer.
Presuming you're suggesting we go back to our Christian Science churches, been there, done that. I gave Christian Science more than 30 years of my life and feel I gave it quite a fair shake already. Monitoring Christian Science sources such as christianscience.com, I don't see anything different.
Linda, you have researched the life of Mrs. Eddy much more than I and maybe she got upset if there was not physcal improvement, but I can only speculate that she was frustrated that the theological leaders at the time were poo pooing her ideas. You and I both know that they were poo pooing her ideas, because she was a woman. If a man wrote it, they would have been much more receptive. Mrs. Eddy therefore may have been looking for something to make Christian Science vastly different.
I'm not as aware as you that Linda agrees that Mary Baker Eddy encountered resistance only because she was a woman. Guess you've had some private communication with her that counters what I know. I'm sure there were some contemporaries who resisted Mrs. Eddy because of her sex. I can't do anything about what happened 100 years ago. Do I recall incorrectly that she had quite a number of male supporters who contributed to the growth of the movement? For today and my own evaluations, Mrs. Eddy's sex is quite irrelevant regarding my rejection of her teachings.
I see Christian Science as very simple. When something goes wrong in this world, you pray and get closer to God. You love God with all your heart, strength, mind and soul and you love your neighbor as thyself. Do this and ye shall live too. People may get a better idea of being humble by getting on their knees, but dedicating yourself to the idea that there is only God and nothing else is as humble as one can get.
I also have a very simple vision of Christian Science developed from more than 30 years of study including class instruction (BTW, I don't recall, are you class taught?). It professes to be Christian, but denies the accuracy of God's word. I find the Bible to be the simpler, more accurate, and more effective representation of God's love and plan for His people.
Please do not say that CS does not follow the Bible, because it does more than any other denomination I have gone to. If you want to comfort former CSers, then do so, but don't blame the teaching. There were many followers of Jesus who walked with Him, who became disenchanted. If others at the time wanted to comfort them that would be fine, but how would you feel about those who tried to comfort by saying that His teachings were false.
Oops! Already said that Christian Science doesn't follow the Bible. Guess you've been fairly limited in the denominations that you've visited. You need to get out more. You are correct that simply blaming Christian Science teaching is not as comforting as presenting the truth of God's word. In the context of this venue, however, we have the common topic of Christian Science and people who try to present that error as truth. I very much prefer to talk about the Gospel that God made us, loves us, wants us saved from sin, and provided the sacrifice that found us in our death to enable us to be with Him forever. Jesus said that those who are without sin did not need Him. That's not me. I need Him, big time! As you apparently consider yourself sinless, I suppose that could account for your rejection of the Bible.
I have read many of the cult books and many raise questions that I can't answer, but I have yet to read anything that shows that S&H is not Biblical.
The Bible itself is the best source for showing that Science & Health is not Biblical. What kinds of questions can you not answer?
Have a Happy New Year! I'm going to find a chore I can cross off my list.
Do Go Be Man
<><
|
|
|
Posted Saturday, December 27, 2008 4:57 PM
|
|
|
|
You and I both know that they were poo pooing her ideas, because she was a woman. Thanks for the reminder, Do Go Be Man -- I meant to respond to this. I don't belive for a second that Mrs. Eddy's ideas were poo pooed because she was a woman. I suspect her revision of the Bible and her revision of reality were bigger factors than her gender.
|
|
|
Posted Monday, December 29, 2008 10:12 AM
|
|
|
|
I think it is possible that MBE's ideas were discounted both because she was a woman, as well as because they were radical. She lived in a time when women had few rights, and heaven forbid they used their brains for anything other than 'traditional' womens activities in the home. I can think of at least two famous women authors who lived around the same time who had to publish their books under pseudonyms or they wouldn't get published at all because they were women -- George Eliot (Marian Evans) and Ellis Bell (Emily Bronte).
This was also a period of time when there were many radical thoughts floating around, and CS was just another new way of thinking albeit a little more out there than others and worthy of criticism.
Since this is in the 'What about Principia' section. I think it's interesting that Principia was founded by a woman. She chose not to reveal that she'd had MBE's 'blessing' until after the school was well established. I have always wondered about that. Principians have a reverance for Mary Kimball Morgan in the same way that CSers revere MBE. They read collections of Morgan's writings the same way they read S&H, looking for inspiration.
|
|
|
Posted Friday, April 17, 2009 11:35 PM
|
|
|
|
I work at Principia College now. I am not CS. There are a few places on campus that you can work that you don't have to be CS. Those are the kitchen, house keeping, and maintenance. I have been there for five years now. When I first started working there I got very involved going to plays talks and talent shows. The more I was around CS members the more I realized they don't see us in the same way as they see their community members. I sometimes tell people that I now know how the blacks felt back in the 60's when they were allowed to do the dirty work that no one else wanted to do but they couldn't eat at the same lunch counter. We are looked at as second rate citizens. If an empty beer bottle is found someplace on campus it had to be one of use bringing it on campus not one of their own students. For the most part if you pass a CS staff worker they will smile and tell you hello but see them off campus and they will do everything they can to avoid you. This has been my experience maybe not everyone’s.
I have heard that a Principia education is very desirable but many of the students I have known have graduated only to go on to a secular college to get the degree they use to get into their desired field. I have also known students that have graduated that I don’t know how they made it through high school let along college.
The only reason I’m still working there is because of the students not my bosses or the faculty. If it wasn’t for the students I would have been gone.
Service Worker
|
|
|
Posted Saturday, April 18, 2009 7:02 AM
|
|
|
|
The more I was around CS members the more I realized they don't see us in the same way as they see their community members. So sorry to hear that. Having attended Prin in the '70s, I can see how that would happen. The people probably don't even realize what they are doing (I'm not excusing them, just making a comment based on experience).
I have heard that a Principia education is very desirable but many of the students I have known have graduated only to go on to a secular college to get the degree they use to get into their desired field. Prin gave a good eduction when I was there, but the CS population has dropped so drastically in the past 30 years that the pool of prospective students and available profs is really small. I suspect that's a big reason for the drop in quality. I'm glad you have a good relationship with the students. I remember being friends with a lady who used to clean around campus; I really enjoyed her and think of her frequently.
|
|
|
Posted Saturday, April 18, 2009 10:44 PM
|
|
|
|
It is hard to keep this page as a Principia page with all the extra comments going on. I too would like to comment on the gender question of MBE's appearance on the religion scene. And also the sin issue. Could we start a new thread for these issues?
But I will say this as a sideline about Prin.
As a teen-ager in the late 1950's it was my greatest dream to go to Prin. but my parents had two children younger than I so they couldn't shell out the money and we had so many financial and family troubles that my grades were slipping so drastically in high school I would never have been accepted into Prin. anyway. My family problems and my "dropping" grades went hand in hand; and of course none of the family or financial problems were ever addressed openly, just denied and we were sent to our rooms to study what MBE had to say about our attitudes if ever we had an emotional outburst due to family stress. So MBE helped me to stuff and deny my feelings until I had a serious outburst and then it was back upstairs to my room with the S&H again. I spent most of my teen-age life upstairs in my room with S&H trying to get it right and trying to deny my parents' oft-times abusive and neglectful words and behaviors. Part of my mind and soul knew they were cruel and another part of my soul made me feel horrible and guilty. But I never gave up knowing that my parents were messed-up. And I thank God for that. It seemed as if I was defying every single Biblical teaching because I was holding on to ideas of wrong doing of my parents (I was imagining it! Making it all up in my messed-up, ungrateful head!) instead of "getting over it, and seeing my hard-working parents as perfect reflections of God and their children as nothing but a bunch of cry-babies as my parents often called us. All that saved my sanity is that somewhere in my mind since I was about 5 years old I learned that Jeasus totally loved me and was my secret friend. Wow!
Principia was held up to the children in our family for so many years as the pinicle of Biblical and intellectual perfection. Higher than Oxford, Harvard or Sorbonne. It is just amazing to me the brain washing that goes on about these CS institiuitons, and the sence of personal pride (ego and self-righteousness disguised as humility) these CS people acquire at getting to visit, attend and do these CS things like being in Boston and seeing the first little CS church and the big one, and being Class Taught, being students of Prin. being CS Practitioners. I think that for a lot of them it all is a result of having a portion of low self-esteem and needing to gain a sence of belonging. Plus there is a fear and guilt over looking at or looking for something else. If they do look into other religions it is to criticize them and to measure them up against CS because it is so very hard to admit that they have been wrong. So they defend CS like a normal person would defend his life, because CS is the aspect of their life that makes them feel big, right, and important rather that swimming in the big pond with the rest of us sinners. We know that CSists think that they are so much better and wiser than anyone else.
CS is a religion that can prey on a person's weaknesses by give us credentials without having to do much hard reasoning and thinking for ourselves in order to get the credentials (all you really have to do to be "in" is follow the leaders and model yourself after the first and second Readers or other half dead practitioners. If they didn't have each other to mutually praise eachother, they would be lost. I think (in some ways) it is the mutual admiration that keeps them there. I think it's about being praised for being an obedient fish in a very, very small pond; and without the mutual admiration they would slip out the back; which I think is why the church really is shrinking, because the tone really did get too critical in a world where most other Christian churches are raising their vibrations to a much higher level to reach out more, to embrace each other, to focus on the Christ and not the dogmas, seeing the various denominations as parts of the body, while CS is just getting more critical and more exclusive.
It wasn't until I had a lot of life experience, that I began to see that not going to Principia was a huge blessing in disguise. I would never have fit in anyway. I am too down to earth and democratic for most people, (not meaning this in a political party way!) I would be hanging out with the maintainance crew, the cooks and sweepers. That's who I am. That maintainance person in the above post would have saved my sanity. I know it.
no more CS4me
|
|
|
Posted Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:38 PM
|
|
|
|
I've been lurking and reading for a few months now, and have been waiting to say anything because at first I didn't understand why so many of you think it's so hard to leave CS. But the more I read and ponder, the more I realize that I may not have made as easy and clean a break as I thought, some 30 years ago.
The point that is relevant to this conversation, though, is that I, too, was raised to believe that acceptance into the Principia was the pinnacle of achievement for higher education. My parents were so set on a sound CS environment for me that they offered 3 choices of colleges, and anything else I would have to work and afford on my own. Choice one was to live at home and attend a local college, belong to the branch church in which I grew up, and be active in the college org. Choice two, attend UCLA and live at Asher House. Choice 3, attend Principia.
My grandmother bequeathed over 2 million dollars to Principia, but her will was written fully believing that she would outlive my grandfather. Yes, very foolish planning. Unfortunately, she died before Grandpa. Prin got their money and when the family discovered that Grandpa was left with little to live on, the Prin administrators refused to discuss any kind of renegotiation or trust arrangement. The money was now theirs, and my grandfather would have to live with the results of his foolish benevolence. That was 1969. In 1972, several of us grandchildren graduated from high school and applied to Prin. ALL of us were denied! Honor students who were all the offspring of Principia graduates, whose family had bequeathed over 2 milllion bucks, and Prin's explanation was that there were more applicants than spaces for the freshman class, and it came down to the luck of the draw. I think my cousin actually stayed on the waiting list and pulled out of another college during mid-term in order to fill a vacancy, but I was just independent and proud enough that there was no looking back.
I don't know if this really lends anything to this thread, but the more I read, the more little things come bubbling to the surface after 30 years of thinking I had been able to walk away unscathed, and this time I had to tell someone who gets it. I realize that being spared the Principia "experience" was a blessing in disguise.
|
|
|
Posted Monday, April 20, 2009 7:06 AM
|
|
|
|
Dear Service Worker,
Actually, I think you've done more good than you know. I remember Prin (lower grades) as a very loving place... and if the people doing the real grunt work are every bit as loving (or more) as the ones who do the teaching and administrating, that says a lot for your Christian ministry. Both my dad and little brother went to Prin for college and each had opposite experiences. I believe little brother was there against his will.
Eventually I went to train at Tenacre, and I think they did somewhat the same thing, to a point. Occasionally a CSer would get on staff in the maintenance department or some such thing. I remember Annie and her winning, loving smile. Baptist, I think. So down to earth, and so humane. Those were the people who took care of the nurses -you know, cooked & cleaned. The backbone of the whole effort.
At one point, I got a dose of the alienation you've spoken of. It's not as much as you encountered, but it's still somewhat similar. When I had been working there a few years, one of my seizures finally happened on the job. (Interesting to see the "insane" start praying, but they did.) Anyway, the administrator met with me, and I was told I had to leave. I had no where to go, since my parents had downsized, and already had 4 in a 2 bedroom place, and didn't want to make room for another. So they let me stay (same work), until I could get another job. I offered to work in another capacity, but they wouldn't allow it. If I got medical help I would have been out immediately. (I asked.) So, that's when the superficial kindness started. It wasn't exactly being shunned, not by a long shot, but I knew I was an outsider by the way their voices and actions changed.
There's a lot of ministry and evangelism you can do, as a Christian, without ever opening your mouth. St Francis was big on that kind. Setting an example of real Christian love, and real community IS a big witness to the peace of God, and the presence of the Holy Spirit in you. Their highest compliment will be to mistake you for one of their own. Our highest joy is when someone who's there against their will turns to you and realizes you care... and you aren't part of the thing they're rebelling against. Allies. Moral support. It takes a lot of prayer, and I don't know if I could work there if I had to listen to the teachings often. I hope you're sheltered from that. Somehow, even an apparently loving environment like that could be hostile; I'm glad you see through the charade, and aren't tempted into it. It's as though you have eyes opened by God, so as to see the true spirit of what's behind CS.
Say, you wouldn't mind if some of us pray for you, would you?
Jen
|
|
|
|