 Posted Thursday, May 05, 2005 7:14 PM
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Nyoka,
I remember reading something that Doris Day's son wrote about Principia in what I think was her autobiography MANY years ago. He talked about barely surviving a year there and getting kicked out for having pre-marital relations with his girlfriend (his words were considerably more graphic than mine). I don't know whether this is the book you're talking about.
Regarding your password, the "automatic password sender" (can't think of the right words to use to sound technical) doesn't work in the forum software, so I have to send the passwords out. I just mailed yours to you.
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Posted Friday, May 06, 2005 7:35 AM
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"I'm pretty sure that Prin has been a bad thing for CS. My main reason for believing that is the way it undermined CS Orgs by cloistering so many promising CSists into such a false environment. A CS Sunday School teacher compared Prin to hiding the light of CS under a bushel.
My second reason for feeling the way I do is the elitism that Prin students develop (even beyond that of Ivy Leaguers). They always seemed to me to feel only they could bear the true banner of CS. Even though I never attended Prin, I had friends that did and for some time thought perhaps they were right. That was until I discovered what a low percentage of Prin students attended, much less were active in, the Org. Stories about the extremes of Prin further disillusioned me.
Do Go Be Man"
"Do Go,
Thanks for your comments about Principia. I find them persuasive.
tmcl"
TMCL:
I find your reaction to DGBM's comments astonishing. Here is one institution, exclusively CS 24/7 with CS people (albeit primarily young people) and not those from other backgrounds who are caught up in "mortal mind" , and you are de facto conceeding that this institution is a failure (if I understand you correctly). I don't really know much about Principia, but to me, what has been shared here is that it is just an all too human institution with folks who are all to human, just like all other religious and non religious colleges, etc. In short, the lives lived as described prove once again (and do 99% of all CSist's daily lives) that man is by no means exclusively spiritual, but very much material as well.
John
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Posted Friday, May 06, 2005 7:38 AM
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"I have also heard that Principia is very dependent on big donors who are socially and politically conservative and that this leads the Principia admistration to be backward on issues such as gay rights, etc. But I don't know if this is true or not..."
tmcl
tmcl:
I am curious by what you mean backward on gay rights? Do you feel the gay or lesbian lifestyle should be accepted in TMC and by CS?
John
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Posted Friday, May 06, 2005 8:41 AM
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Dear John,
I am not commenting on whether or not Principia is a "failure." My misgivings about it revolve around its very existence as an institution that would isolate a group of Christian Scienctists from the larger heterogeneous society -- academic, social, etc. And I also have observed what seems to me to be the elitism and cultishness that have risen to some extent around Principia and its students and alumni. To the extent that this has happened, I don't think this is a healthy thing.
But my comments in this thread have nothing to do with people at Principia being "all too human." One finds that everywhere in this world, even in churches and in colleges connected with churches.
tmcl
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Posted Friday, May 06, 2005 8:53 AM
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John wrote:
I am curious by what you mean backward on gay rights? Do you feel the gay or lesbian lifestyle should be accepted in TMC and by CS?
John,
By venturing into a discussion of this issue, we may be putting ourselves in danger of being moderated by Linda, but I'll go ahead and respond to your question.
My comment was precipitated by my having heard rumors that wealthy donors had threatened to withold donating money to Principia if Principia in any way permitted openly gay students or faculty to be enrolled or employed there.
What I believe is that TMC or any institution connected with CS should accept gay people, and not ecommunicate, shun, ostracize, or kick them out, etc. And trust that, just as with heterosexuals, God will heal anything that needs healing in their lives in an appropriate way. It is not up to any person or group of people to judge or condemn them as individuals.
tmcl
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Posted Friday, May 06, 2005 9:01 AM
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"But my comments in this thread have nothing to do with people at Principia being "all too human." One finds that everywhere in this world, even in churches and in colleges connected with churches."
Agreed! And that's just my point. Even when you get a group of CSer's together, they seem to be no different from all the "rest of us sinners", if you get my drift. And that is more proof positive that CS is not true, despite wishful thinking to the contrary.
As for the elitism, that was ever present in my own Sunday School experience. And why not? MBE claimed to have a special revelation that the rest of the Christian world hadn't caught on to yet, or had chosen to reject. Isn't is just another reflection of the human, mortal nature that peoples attitudes would so evolve in such an atmosphere, as it does in other human institutions where they have "the truth"? (I know-I know, this is not how MBE intended it, but it seems to be ever present where mortal physical CS beings congregate, from my experience and these recent posts. )
John
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Posted Friday, May 06, 2005 9:14 AM
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"What I believe is that TMC or any institution connected with CS should accept gay people, and not ecommunicate, shun, ostracize, or kick them out, etc. And trust that, just as with heterosexuals, God will heal anything that needs healing in their lives in an appropriate way. It is not up to any person or group of people to judge or condemn them as individuals."
tmcl
Do I take it from your post above that while you think persons with a gay or lesbian orientation should be accepted in CS churches, those practicing the lifestyle might be considered in need of CS healing? Please clarify if I am correct or incorrect on this issue.
Many thanks,
John
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Posted Friday, May 06, 2005 10:08 AM
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tmcl said:
My comment was precipitated by my having heard rumors that wealthy donors had threatened to withold donating money to Principia if Principia in any way permitted openly gay students or faculty to be enrolled or employed there.
________________________________________________________________________________________
I've heard the same rumors. In fact, in my 2nd year at Prin, a friend of mine decided to set up informal discussions at the dorms to invite other students to have discussions about homosexuality and CS. (He was not gay and wasn't using this to help promote homosexuality; he just wanted to make people feel comfortable talking about it). He was contacted by the president of the college and warned that he would be put on probation or kicked out if he kept stirring things up. I thought that was sad. Personally, I think the Bible is very clear that homosexuality is wrong and I don't think it should be promoted by churches or church-related institutions, but to disallow discussion about the matter is absolutely ridiculous!
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Posted Friday, May 06, 2005 10:26 AM
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John wrote:
Even when you get a group of CSer's together, they seem to be no different from all the "rest of us sinners", if you get my drift. And that is more proof positive that CS is not true, despite wishful thinking to the contrary.
John,
I don't see how this is "more proof positive that CS is not true..." I'm not aware of Mrs. Eddy ever teaching that if you gather some people having a connection with CS into a group and more or less isolate them from mainstream society, that that will cause them to become somehow "sinless."
In fact, I think Mrs. Eddy wasn't really too keen on such isolationist tendencies. After The Mother Church edifice was erected, some Christian Scientists started deliberately moving into the neighborhood around The Mother Church, and Mrs. Eddy commented that she felt that this was an unhealthy tendency for them to concentrate themselves in one area. She even added that the area around The Mother Church might end up like a Mormon community! This of course, refers to the tendency of Mormons in the nineteenth century to migrate for the purpose of "gathering" in the Valley of the Great Salt Lake and in other areas of Utah and the West.
As for elitism, I see your point, and perhaps was too hard on Principia, even though I agree with Do Go that such elitism can at least sometimes be seen among Principians. But, as you say, elitism is a danger for any group that claims to have "the truth." In my opinion, though, that does not make it desirable. One could even argue thath there is a danger of elitism for Christians as a whole. After all, Jesus is quoted as saying, "No man comes to the Father but by me." An acceptance of that statement could easily, in my view, cause Christians to exhibit elitism when in the presence of other world religions, such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. After all, Christians would say that there is no salvation in these religions, and that the whole truth is only in Christianity. I still think that elitism is not a good thing, but given human nature, I think you are right that it can all too often be found among members of many groups.
tmcl
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Posted Friday, May 06, 2005 10:56 AM
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