 Posted Saturday, July 30, 2005 7:09 AM
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Hello all!
As you may recall, I was not raised as a CSer but married one, belonged to the TMC for a number of years before quitting, and have been an "inside" witness to the CS community for a long time. I know the "cult" term raises high emotions here so I hesitate to use it. But since observing a relatively young CS friend die recently because he would not seek medical help, my irritation with CS has reached new heights. The relying on prayer = DEATH suddenly hit home. Oh I had heard of lots of other young CSers die that I kind of knew or knew of...but this was someone I loved and I was privy to his day to day suffering and what practitioners were telling him.
I have thought long and hard about the behavior I have witnessed among CSers over the years and now I believe CS IS a cult. That aside, lets not discuss "cult" on this thread but this odd worship and dependence on one's teacher and/or practitioner AND the often controlling behavior of the teacher and/or the practitioner. One of the definitions of cult is religious veneration of/great devotion to a person. I have seen this a lot in these unnatural relationships between teachers and practitioners and their "followers"/patients.
I myself am not class taught. But I have been in close contact with some teachers and their students. Wow...some really odd relationships there. These teachers are idolized by some of their students like your local rock star, I hesitate to say...ummmmm Jesus? They have a group of people who trail after them as if they were the peid piper. These people vie for positions where they can be in close daily contact with their teacher...their minions, so to speak. And it is not discouraged. What makes CS teachers SO darn special? Lots of men and women in this country have lengthy religious educations at colleges and universities and dedicate their lives to religion as ministers or educators. Do THEY have a flock of devotees following them around? Do THEY encourage it? This is just plain.... cultish. Im not saying that ALL students act this way, or this is ALL teachers...but I've seen a lot of it.
What is even MORE disturbing to me is the unnatural relationships between SOME people and their practioners. Some practitioners seem to revel in controlling their patients lives to a much greater degree than could possibly be considered normal. And on the opposite side, seems CSers, a lot of them, like to be controlled, are somehow conditioned to think that they cant get through ANY difficulty without the help of their practitioner. Its interesting to me that CS basically says that fear is the cause of problems, but it seems that these people are riddled with fear about the most minor things because practitioners will tell you that if you dont pray about it then *X* will happen. My CS mother-in-law, a practitioner, used to tell me all the time that if I didnt pray about it then *X* would happen to my kids. That is fear mongering and that is cultish.
In my own personal experience, my husband has ALWAYS taken every weighty problem to his mother, the practitioner. This does not just include health problems, but problems with our children and work related problems. It has caused a rift in our marriage because I feel most of these problems are something a husband normally seeks out his wife for, not his mother. But *I* have nothing to offer. He needs his practitioner and his books.
I have seen a case where a friend was pressured by the practitioner/teacher into not using another practitioner when the problem was not being healed. Cultish
While I may have seen a doctor on an average of once every few years over my lifetime, my CS friends are on the phone to the practitioner several times a month and more.
I have witnessed a lot more instances of this behavior but dont really want to get into too many specifics for the obvious reasons.
Ill be interested to hear if any of you who grew up in CS have witnessed any of the same odd relationships.
Sorry if I have offended anyone with my opinions and comments. I try to respect peoples belief's, but its awful to see people pay the ultimate price when it isnt necessary....so Im very upset right now with the those who perpetuate the practice of CS with half truths and cultish behavior and practices.
Square Peg
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Posted Saturday, July 30, 2005 4:15 PM
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Square peg I can't really offer much except to say you are not alone when it comes to a husband taking problems to his mother rather than his wife. That has been an ongoing issue in my marriage as well. Sometimes it is discussing problems with his mother and father (neither are practioners) but usually trying to appease them at the expense of my feelings.
I never joined the church and don't think I ever would. It has always seemed very strange and foreign to me. In fact in the last year I've even refused to attend services with my in-laws when visiting them. I allow them to take the children only because I don't want the big fight with my dear husband. I think it is more to show off grand kids than to really get them into the church. Although every year the Sunday school teacher sends each of the kids a long letter with CS wackiness. My son at 4 is already very Jesus centered as a result of attending the kids program at BSF (Bible Study Fellowship.) I highly recommend it even if some of the teachings are somewhat different than my personal beliefs.
Keep praying that you have the strength to deal with this and that the Holy Spirit will show you the best way to handle this.
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Posted Saturday, July 30, 2005 8:06 PM
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Square Peg, before I write another line, I want to extend my sincere condolences to you on the loss of your friend.
It is hard to strike a balance between what we would do under a set of circumstances and allowing another person we care about to make their own choices. As I went through the years living as a CS "from birth" yet knowing I was deciding day by day to stick with it, I saw the dichotomy of people to "stayed with it" and died, and people who sought medical help and recovered, and also those who sought medical help and also died.
I wondered if my CS father might have changed his mind about his health care choice once he lost the ability to speak. He had been a CS since adolescence, and what we had to go on were his written wishes. We owed him that respect to follow what he'd always lived and vocally expressed as well as having put it in writing. Do I believe he was manipulated by his teacher and his practioners? No! Do I know that he sought them out for help in preference to non-CS help? Absolutely!
As for practioner / patient, teacher / pupil relationships and whether they are truly "cultish", you are right about "cult" being a loaded word. I'd like to put three statements out that are just my personal observations from growing up and living what I hope is only the first half of my life as a CS.
1. There may be manipulators who use CS, but there are also true believers in CS. They can sound an awful lot alike, and only God knows what's in a person's heart. Someone who is sincere in what they believe can still lead many astray, though, to their sorrow.
2. There are people who are willing to be manipulated, and there are true believers in CS. They can sound an awful lot alike, and only God knows what's in a person's heart. I was not one to call often, just as some people don't go to a doctor often (that would be true of me as an ex-CS). Some CS are quite willing to change practitioners if healing is not quickly achieved. I worked with some practioners who were very loving and generous about the need to find the right practioner for a specific case. These practioners express the belief that they are simply fellow travellers in following their leader, and for that matter, as she requested, only so far as she followed Christ. A patient seeking for someone else to do all the work places a terrible burden on a sincere teacher or practioner!
3. Finally, there are true believers in CS, and there are those who mistake what they believe (faith in personality--a practitioner or teacher) for CS. This is a disservice to both the practioner / teacher, to themselves, and to CS. It's also a personal tragedy for the mistaken.
By the way, everything that is said here of the relationships between practioners and teachers and their patients / pupils could be said about many other relationships between a "healer" / "pastor" / "counsellor" and one who seeks them out. A chiropractor and patient, a therapist and patient, a personal trainer and a client, a doctor and patient... a preacher and congregant. All these relationships can be healthy or unhealthy, depending on the personalities involved and how they enter into them. If you want to use the word "cult" to describe this unhealthy behavior, then I can accept it for the unhealthy CS relationships as well.
I observed both healthy and unhealthy relationships between and among CS people in the 50 years I was a child growing up in a CS home, a pupil in a CS Sunday School, a pupil in Primary Class and a member of an Association, and as a CS wife of a CS husband. I ended up leaving both CS and my husband in the end, which was very, very difficult. Were my own relationships within CS healthy? Some yes, some no (correction, mostly no). Are my own relationships outside of CS healthy? Some yes, some no... I'd like to think I'm learning and they are getting better.
- Jean W. (former CS)
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Posted Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:26 PM
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Thank you Jean, you always speak with much wisdom.
I wanted to tell my friend and his wife that I thought his problem was a serious one...but I also know that "voicing fear" would, in the minds of the CSer, make the situation more difficult for them, and would make ME kind of guilty of causing the problem. Ive had THAT laid on me before. I DID agonize over this. But he has NEVER seen a doctor, and he IS an adult. His life is HIS after all. However, he told his wife the day he died that he was scared and wanted to go to a hospital. He talked to his practitioner, who told him his symptoms were common an he shouldnt worry about them. Now this really inflames me. A person with NO medical training is in a position to diagnose something over the phone?...this is really criminal. But my friend was relieved and did nothing. THIS is control. This is not the action of a Christian person...when someone calls and is fearful and wants to go to a hospital. To exhalt yourself to the position of a doctor and diagnose something as not a big problem....its just criminal.
Yes, CSers always reply that people who go to see doctors die too. But doctors never claim they can heal everything. They just do the best they can. They do not claim medical science is a panacea. If you have cancer, the doctors will do the best they can. No one figures they are home free because they see a doctor. When a CSer sometimes finally goes to a doctor, they are often beyond help. They wait for months and months hoping that the healing will come...and dont go until they cant deal with the pain or the awful symptoms any longer. Then the poor people have no one to pray for them! Another post was speaking of the lack of GRACE in CS. Well Im not sure Ive got the definition quite right...but...its exactly right in my experience. Like what would Jesus do if one of his flock had to go to the hospital? ....say well, Im not gonna pray for you now! Here is this CSer totally out of his element in a hospital...a very scary place for a CSer! Its the one time in his life when he need the help and prayers of his friends at the branch church the MOST...and they shun him!!! Ive also had my mother in law refuse to pray for my father when he had a heart attack...she was going off to Wednesday night service and my mother was with us when we found out...My mother asker her to pray for him when she went to church and she refused. Now there is a lack of Grace for yah eh? Typical Christian Scientist! Read your lesson every day, go to church twice a week, make everyone around you who is not CS feel like an unenlightened heathen, but you cannot even say a prayer for your fellow man in a time of need. Well, yeah, I know why she said that, I know what the rules are...but...its not what Jesus would have done. What the use of all the studying if you dont get that?
Ive know of so many CSers under 60 who have died and so few regular people under 60 who have died. AND people dying of illnesses that are easily cured with medical science these days. What regular person dies of gangrene these days?
Yes, I agree with you that all are not manipulators. And there are "true believers" in the sense that they are not people who are of a type who like to be manipulated or controlled. But I Do think that CS is a manipulative religion. It is a subtle thing here and I dont really understand it. But most of you talk about how hard it is to leave even though you want to. And how you often dont have the nerve to tell your family. What is it about the way this religion is taught to children that makes them fearful of being without it?..or terrified of not abiding by the wishes of their parents. SO many of you have spoken about how difficult it is or would be to tell your parent that you dont believe any more. I think this is rarely such a monumental problem with a person who grew up as a Methodist and wants to become a Presbyterian, or even a jew who wants to be a Catholic. I see how my husband venerates his parents and the belief system they taught him, but I have also watched him suffer over the years with illnesses that he prayed about and never saw a healing. Years and years of it. But still he clings to the concept that CS heals.
The unhealthy relationships? Maybe you grew up and never saw what I have seen. Have to say Ive never met a chiropractor that had these minions who clamored to get his groceries, walk his dog, clean his house, organize his papers, run his errands. Nor do these chiropractors then get these minions to become executors of the wills patients that are dying while they are on their death bed. Oh, these minions are like personal slaves, but very willing slaves. Nah, this doesnt happen with personal trainers, doctors. Im not talking about one person having a relationship with a counsellor...perhaps someone falls in love with their counsellor. Perhaps the counsellor stops this behavior, or takes advantage of it. But this teacher thing...there are groups of these minions, and its not discouraged. I should say again that I dont say this is the case with ALL teachers...Just the few I have observed.
Well I have been on a bit of a rant today. I apologize again for my ire. Its been building and building and Ive needed to unload it. (Ive got more) Sorry if Ive sounded like I am classifying everyone like this. I know this is not the case. And there ARE some things about CS that I actually like.
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Posted Saturday, July 30, 2005 10:46 PM
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Square Peg wrote:
However, he told his wife the day he died that he was scared and wanted to go to a hospital. He talked to his practitioner, who told him his symptoms were common an he shouldnt worry about them.
This is something that should never, never, NEVER happen! Any "practitioner" who tries to influence a patient's behavior in the slightest has no business being a practitioner or being listed in The Christian Science Journal. And personally, were my spouse to express a desire to go to a hospital, I would see to it that they got there immediately.
tmcl
tmcl
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Posted Sunday, July 31, 2005 7:24 AM
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tmcl, you have been a fine and supportive voice for the "sane" CS behavior that I have observed, but even you have admitted that the "shoulds" and "should nots" related to CS are not always what is experienced in any given case. The only enforcing of correct CS behavior for practioners / teachers in the realm of personal relationships is removing their names from the Journal. And it takes a lot to have / make that happen.
On a lesser level, there are many degrees of inappropriateness. I would have been every bit as appalled as my mother was when she called for help and was told something to the effect of "a good Christian Scientist has the bathroom cleaned before nine a.m."! My mother, ever the pragmatist, laughed and did not consider this to be CS at all, and in fact warned her children about this kind of behavior in practictioners. Not everyone is so armed to distinguish the difference. Even if you personally have never had a practitioner offer personal opinions and taken them as gospel (until you learned better) you must know someone who has. I believe it to be fairly common. Why? Because the relationship of practitioner / patient is often a fuzzy line between the personal and the professional.
Square Peg makes the point of it being rare to hear of such behavior among other relationships I mentioned. I believe that the religious counselor / pastor relationship tends more often to be this sort of mix than professional relationships that are guarded by standards, such as doctors and chiropractors. I remember one practitioner with whom I worked being very strict about the separation of those relationships. Practitioners who maintain offices outside of their homes are often striving to keep those relationships separate. But the personal leaks over, and the number of those who maintain professional offices has dwindled over the years.
On the other hand, how much practice would a practioner have if he/she followed a strict rule of never treating family or close friends? Surgeons will often refer cases of those close to them to others who are not so personally involved. Has anyone experienced this with a practitioner? "I really think you should ask someone else for help with this."
I know that the "minions" of whom Square Peg speaks exist. I have seen it at both levels (practitioner and teacher). Maybe I'm naive, but I believe this is often cheerful giving of time out of love and gratitude. I really don't see how mowing the practitioner's grass or changing his / her storm windows is that much different from folks of other faiths who get together to do services for the rectory / minister, or for that matter for others in need within the congregation. The church does not pay practitioners. In some cases it is an accomodation of services, a form of barter: I can't afford to pay for your services, but I can wash your car.
Square Peg, I left out the fourth of the scenarios. Perhaps it is the most dangerous. I have seen people seek the services of practioners and achieve wonderful healings. My father's recovery from being the pedestrian in a car / pedestrian accident is one I remember watching with awe. The thing about these healings is that they do result in an extreme rush of adoration and gratitude. I know, because I've felt it.
Square Peg you mention the difficulty many of us have or had in leaving CS behind, in disclosing to our relatives that we have. That rush of awe and gratitude once felt, is very hard to leave. It is like an addiction. The very fact that the results are not 1:1 seeking healing / receiving healing keeps one coming back, changing the "lucky socks" (to use a metaphor), and trying again. If you have loved ones still believing, you don't want to burst their bubble, or end the relationship; they have to hit bottom on their own. Healings, even the little ones, are the hooks that keep people tied. The hope of the bigger healing, in the face of the fear of what the problem might be, is what can lead to delay in seeking diagnosis, and the desperate last minute request for pain relief.
In recent years the CS church has backed away from some of the more superlative claims for its successes, and gotten back to something less intense, "Here's this book, it helped me, maybe it will help you." I somewhat resented this approach as a watering down of the Christian Science that I was raised with. I saw it as covering the behinds of those in power, lest they be held accountable for results. I saw it as a backing away from the mission of primitive Christianity and its lost element of healing. I finally assimilated it as their admission that CS does not work consistently. Perhaps this very behavior is what finally enabled me to leave CS, to stop rolling the dice.
The deepest sorrow, of course, is that all the backing away in the world won't stop addiction from happening. I always thought a cult involved worship of a personality. The addiction that I see to CS healing does not have to be related to a person. But if addictive behavior is what defines a "cult" to you, so be it.
- Jean W.
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Posted Sunday, July 31, 2005 12:08 PM
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I appreciate the thoughtful discussion going on here.
Square Peg,
I don't know if you've run into my book yet, but I think you might enjoy reading it as you think through the issue of cultic relationships in CS. The book examines CS in light of the criteria that cult expert Robert J. Lifton outlined as being indicators of whether a group or person is exerting mind control over others. I bent over backwards to be gentle and fair in my examination (the overwhelming majority of my references are from pro-CS sources) although my publisher gave it a rather harsh title -- The Religion That Kills. You can read large portions of the book using amazon.com's "Search Inside the Book" feature.
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Posted Sunday, July 31, 2005 4:36 PM
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Jean,
Thanks for your reply. What you say is very interesting.
I suppose the minion like behavior that I have seen is in no way like people in a congregation wanting to help out the poor minister. These teachers were wealthy. Yes, the minions like to help do things, and joyfully Im sure, but it was to be in the presence of the enlightened one. It was because of a kind of adoration. The minions even competed among themselves to be THE right hand man so to speak...the consigliare. I talk about this because it is a pattern that I have noticed in more than a few relationships between teacher/practitioner and their students/patients. This is religious venreation, great devotion to a person. That is cultish. There is a love of controlling/dominating and a desire to be controlled/dominated. No, its not with everyone, but its too much to be ignored. And I dont think that this is what Christian Science in its pure sense is about, but its a big way in which it is practiced.
Ive not even looked up the larger definitions of what a cult is. I see thats in your book Linda so I want to read it. But CS DOES kill people. How is that any different than Jim Jones really? He did it in one fell swoop, but CS has had a lot more deaths chalked up to it over the years than the horrible Mr. Jones. We all consider Mr. Jones followers as being totally irrational to believe what he said and let themselves die. But how is CS different than that? What sense does it make to have a serious health issue and get treatments day in and day out ...for months...that dont work...and lay there until you eventually die. Even if it IS a problem medical science cant cure, they can at least alleive the pain. Was it the Smarts? that were on the Donahue show years ago, who let their child die of a twisted bowel or something like that? How is that different than Jim Jones telling the parentss to give their children the drink. Mrs. Smart herself saw a doctor when she was in so much pain she couldnt take it...but she let her child suffer for a week before he died.. Oh yeah...I remember when the child finally went into a coma the practitioner...over the phone...said her treatments were working as the child was finally resting. bleh! Another fabulous MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS over the phone to put the parents minds to rest. Criminal!
Believing in a RELIGION so much that you allow a child of your body to suffer and eventually die, in the face of all reason, dispite the fact that 99% of the educated people in the world understand the value of medical science... THAT is cultish behavior. How much worse can it get? What more terrible thing can you do than be responsible for the death of your own child? What more terrible thing can be done than to give treatments that are clearly not working on a child in great pain and then make some stupid medical diagnosis over the phone..that practitioners are not supposed to do...but do all the time.... to lull the parents into believing everything is just fine.
Sorry again for the rant. : (
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Posted Sunday, July 31, 2005 6:13 PM
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Square Peg,
You are forgiven the rant, but you'll have to forgive one of mine in return. You brought up a hot button for me, and that is what happens to sick children of well-meaning but deluded CS parents! The minions you originally referred to are adults, and can freely choose to give their time and effort to services provided for their teacher / practitioners, whatever their internal motive. My father in his dying days was an adult and had the right to make his own choices.
But you change the argument completely when you bring up children. Children have no voice in their care, but are dependent upon their parents to make wise choices for them.
Rant begins: This is based on feelings that seethed inside of me as a CS parent when the Swans lost their child under CS care in South Dakota. It seethed inside me when the Twitchells were prosecuted in Massachusetts. It seethed inside me when I heard of any CS parent losing a child. The reason it seethed was because I was both a child who had been raised in CS and a CS parent, and I felt that nobody was truly on my side.
The church would say it was my choice to have CS treatment or medical for my child. But if I chose CS treatment for my child and there was a bad result, I would be legally "on my own." The very fact that I would question support from the church was a sign that I did not have enough "faith", and maybe I'd better go to the medical, because I wasn't being a good enough CS. How scary is that? Your religion abandons you in your hour of need (similar to something you said in an earlier post).
Despite my sympathetic feelings for the parents whose loss was great, my anger at the United States legal system that left CS parents in this Catch-22 was greater. While watching the Donahue episode you wrote of in horror, I realized I was at odds with the extreme defensiveness within the community of Christian Scientists I went to church with. My position to the legal community was this, even while I was a Chrisitan Scientist: If you are going to send people to jail over what happens to their children, then repeal all the false promises laws that say it's OK to use prayer alone if you belong to a recognized church that believes in this form of treatment! Make it clearly illegal to withhold medical treatment if that's the basis on which you intend to prosecute, or make it clearly legal that exempt means exempt! Don't leave these poor parents in limbo, because that's where they are.
These laws have been losing ground since Rita Swan formed C.H.I.L.D. Even before that Christian Scientists were taught to be obedient to the law of the land. Starting in the earliest years, as medical requirements for the care of children came into being, the legal arm of the C.S. church (Committees on Publication) lobbied for exemptions from these legal requirements to immunize our children, to have them examined, even to have them weighed and measured in school! But if / when something goes wrong, there is the legal standard used in courts of law that uses what a "reasonable person" would do in the circumstances to determine "neglect" or "abuse". A true believer CS is not a "reasonable person" in times of crisis! Especially not where their child is concerned. Even more if the parent was raised with no medical care him or herself!
When my child suffered a broken arm in second grade, I did not think twice about taking him to the emergency room and having it set. Why? Because Mrs. Eddy makes a specific reference that it's "better" to leave the setting of broken bones to a surgeon. It was still agonizing to be in that hospital waiting room! Later when CS was ineffective in healing my child of what eventually was diagnosed as fibromyalgia syndrome (at age 15) it was harder for me to make the choice. It was in some ways fortunate that my child was old enough to have a say, and that the practitioner abandoned his case. When your child is not functioning in school, you need to know what's happening in the eyes of "normal" society, you can't just keep him home every day!
Rant ended
As far as I'm concerned, Square Peg, feel free to rant away, as long as it's with the understanding that things on the inside don't always look the same as they do on the outside of CS. And perhaps that only supports your contention that the behavior within is "cultish".
- Jean W.
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Posted Sunday, July 31, 2005 7:32 PM
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Sorry, Square Peg, there was one more thing I wanted to comment on from your earlier post, where you said:
"I think this is rarely such a monumental problem with a person who grew up as a Methodist and wants to become a Presbyterian, or even a jew who wants to be a Catholic."
I might agree with you about Methodist to Presbyterian (main-stream protestant to main-stream protestant Christian), but I will take exception to the "Jew who wants to be a Catholic". I've heard of Jewish parents sitting shiva (sp? -- i.e. considering them dead) for their children who converted to Chrisitianity.
On a personal level, I have a brother in law who was raised as a Bible-believing fundamentalist Christian. He converted to Judaism as an adult and was afraid to tell his parents. Eventually his children told their grandparents, and oh, what a wailing and gnashing of teeth ensued.
It's not just CS. It's any denomination that believes their way to be the only path to salvation. It's in how we were raised, the respect we hold for our parents, and wanting to preserve their world vision as long as possible. I think this is more in the parent / child relationship and how much importance the parent placed on religion. Believe me, there are very few "casual" CSists! There are some really old threads on this forum where we got into that discussion.
- Jean W.
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